Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

There was a similar case in France a few years ago of a Muslim women who was denied citizenship after refusing to shake hands with a male official during the citizenship ceremony. The decision was upheld at appeal.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43839655

@dontwantamirena

All the links you posted are a load of baloney.
None of that is true. Breastfeeding strange men is absolutely not in islam. It is without a doubt one of the most stupidest things I have ever heard and read.

In islam a woman most certainly can go out and go get a job, an education etc, see her female companions and so on. And no it is not so if she goes to court without a witness she will not be believed. It is for moral support and a witness to back her up in the court if she becomes shakey and nervous.

@downtheplath
You are most welcome.

@queenofknives

Those women who you say came over here as children, is absolutely disgraceful and their so called husbands clearly come from a backwards and warped culture. Islam on the other hand says be good to your woman and to not mistreat.

When you say it is absolutely nonsense that women have more rights. It is correct that women have more rights. I actually reverted to islam, because of how brilliant it was in regards to womens rights along with learning about jesus's place in islam. I wouldn't join a religion that was based on downgrading women.

So unfortunate to hear of the story you just shared. I hope those ladies are all in a better place now, God willing.

@PopsicleHustler The links are to hadiths (saying of Mohammed). That is baloney? And you clearly didn't even bother to click the links as you would have understood that the breastfeeding one was told by Aisha (his wife) and classified sahih (correct):

www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/aj28da/hotd_163_muhammad_has_woman_breastfeed_a_grown/

A muhaddith (muslim scholar) even discusses it here in a present day context:

www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/aj29yn/alalbani_explains_legitimacy_and_current/

I find it interesting that this, too, is in a way linked to the idea of very rigid views about gender roles, just like the most extreme trans ideology where being a woman is so much about makeup and wearing dresses and so on.

My own desire is that we could view individuals as individuals in most situations (including when shaking hands) and not always as someone seen taking a certain role in sex or reproduction. Acknowledge sex when it is clearly relevant and minimise its impact otherwise.

The fundamentalist views of most religions assign women all the duties to control sexuality and regard women as the sole source of sex and therefore dangerous. This begins with the fable about Eve and the snake. And of course in reality women have very little power to gate-keep sexuality or stop harassment from happening and so on.

As an aside, I think the ban on shaking hands with the opposite sex in Islam is one of those misreadings which come from warnings not to have sexual relations with women one is not allowed to have them with. If a person is very extremist in thinking, then that person may not be able to judge where to draw the border so better not to touch any 'inappropriate' person of the opposite sex at all.

The fundamental question, of course, is if the stated principle of equality between men and women in the European Constitution can be achieved together with accommodation of all fundamentalist religious beliefs. I don't think it is possible.

@dontwantamirena

No, they are absolutely crap. Lots of people who hate islam post crap online pretending to be scholars and so on. None of them are real authentic hadith , even if it claims to be from the prophet wife ....

There is absolutely nothing in my faith that says ti have sex slaves or to breastfeed any man. This is all ridiculous posts from people who clearly have a hatred towards Islam.

Do you think if all that was true it would be one of the fastest growing religions on earth?!

Am sorry to tell you, it's all rubbish. My religion teaches fairness and peace. Not sex slaves and other junk.

I wish you a good night. I'm not going to respond this evening. I have constant nausea and am 6 months pregnant. Hope you're well. God bless.

The German citizenship test questions are very transparent, really not hard to give the right answers.

One (that I ended up getting) was 'Your bus route to work is axed, what do you do?' The 'correct' answer was 'start a campaigning group to restore it'. One of the other answers was 'practise cycling' I loved that question.

@cattestreet

Practice cycling lol. Or borrow your child scooter lol

@Gronky - thanks for your link it does indeed make for interesting reading!

Basically his citizenship was denied on the grounds that there was insufficient evidence of a full instigation. And it all started with the infamous handshake!
(For which he claimed that he promised his jealouswife that he would not touch other women!)
In the following trail he did not answer questions about his own beliefs/ views on Islam directly but just gave some generic answers. He clearly avoided talking about himself.

He also had some links to a more radical group in the past. Which again can be a valid reason for denying citizenship.

It is correct that women have more rights.

I'm sorry but this just isn't true. One example: Islam is the religion of Saudi, and the Qu'ran and other religious Islamic teachings form its constitution. Women certainly don't have more rights than men in Saudi Arabia, nor do they have more rights than French or German or British women.

If women have more rights under Islamic law, why are Iranian women continuing to protest their loss of rights under Islam?

Even in islamic law, women can go with another female witness to back her up in court, whereas men just go by themselves.

Two women are needed because a woman's testimony is not as reliable as a man's.

“When you contract a debt, put it in writing and call in two men as witnesses. If two men are not there, then call I one man and two women so that if one of the two women forget, the other can remind her.” (Quran 2:282)

The handshake is proxy for the real issue, which is a disagreement with the concept of equal treatment of the sexes aka treating women with the same respect as you would treat a man.

There is no universal right for religiously mandated discrimination to take precedence over this concept.

No-one should be forced to touch another. Luckily, no-one compelled this man to touch a woman. He is not being threatened with a consequence that conveys compulsion, such as deportation. He remains free to discriminate against women in his family and personal life. He remains in Germany. He has not been fined or punished.

He was free to choose not to shake the hand of a woman, and now he can choose how to manage the consequence of signalling a lack of commitment to a particular German civil value..

@PopsicleHustler

Here it is the breastfeeding hadith on a different sites:

sunnah.com/abudawud/12/16
hamariweb.com/islam/hadith/sunan-abu-dawood-2061/

I really recommend that you sit down and read the whole qu'ran and hadiths in English in chronological order (not the order the qu'ran is usually published in). You will see Mohammed's message changes over time and becomes less peaceful. You will also find they contain all of the things I have mentioned and more.

As for being the fasted growing religion, it encourages women to have multiple children and then they brought up not to question what they are taught and that they should be killed if they leave Islam. It's not hard to understand.

FWIW, I am not anti-Islam, I am anti-religion. Had this thread been about Catholicism or Orthodox Judism or Mormoms or Scientology or anything else, I would have shared similar passages from relevant sources.

I agree with the decision.

And it all started with the infamous handshake!

I imagine he was kicking himself quite hard for that.

He clearly avoided talking about himself.

The whole subtext in his responses was quite unsettling to me.

Can't quote but just repeating this for myself to look back on... A Muslim man will never shake hands with a woman because he never knows if she is bleeding....

That's all I needed to know for my decision.

Dirty bleeding bitches on heat that brought you men into this world... If you were my son being refused citizenship for a refusal of a handshake I would be ashamed of you and proud of the country for refusing you. If you were a gp, I would not want you anywhere near me.

People move to the West because it has something they want or need (safety, employment, education etc). Why is it acceptable to take what you want, without fully participating in society? Part of the interesting thing of being an immigrant, is to open yourself up to new ways of doing things or thinking. Those who stubbornly refuse to be courteous and to accept traditions in their new home, should never have come. I think Germany was 100% correct here. It may be his belief but it is exceedingly rude there, and he knew it.

So i just spent an entertaining half hour reading that judgement and it isn't really about the handshake although that is the red flag that started the ball rolling.

Basically, on being questioned about his membership of a particularly radical mosque in general and his faith and religious views in particular, the conclusion the court came to was that although he answered the questions in the way the court expected to hear (ie in accordance with German law) they were not convinced, due to his very deep faith, that if push came to shove he wouldn't, in fact, pay more attention to his faith than to German law. And so, as pp said, he now has to deal with the consequences of one silly action.

If he'd just shook the woman's hand he'd be German now and able to vote. As it is he can pay tax and not vote, and he is now on the radar for membership of an organisation the police are keeping an eye on.

this part, of the reason it came to court was the most interesting part

"3. Ein vom Einbürgerungsbewerber abgegebenes Bekenntnis zur freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung genügt den Anforderungen des § 10 Abs. 1 Satz 1 Nr. 1 StAG nicht, wenn es sich hierbei um ein bloßes Lippenbekenntnis handelt, das nicht von einer entsprechenden inneren Einstellung des Einbürgerungsbewerbers getragen wird."

Which basically means that if you want to be German you don't just get to pay lip service to the constitution, you have to stick to it.

@Hailtomyteeth

It's standard in Islam. You can't tell for sure when a woman is bleeding so avoid contact such as handshakes. Not accepting that seems to me to be a discrimination against the doctor. I imagine German people are capable of accepting religious and cultural differences in everyday life.

Really? You think it would be discriminaition against the doctor if the state doesn't respect his belief that a woman is unclean if she's bleeding?

due to his very deep faith, that if push came to shove he wouldn't, in fact, pay more attention to his faith than to German law.

Islam doesn't have the equivalent of 'render unto caesar..'. the state is always subservient to the faith. I understand the concept of 'fighting and dying for one's country' is completely alien to Islam, however 'fighting and dying for Islam' is a different matter.

Sounds ok to me, if not shaking hands with a woman is unacceptable to this man then there are many other count he could go to where his views would be supported. Pity our authorities are not like this.

countries not count!

Personally, I’m a bit uneasy with this. I have sympathy with Billy O’Shea, referred to in an article linked in the Deutschewelle article in OP:
www.dw.com/en/denmarks-handshake-law-for-new-citizens-is-un-danish/a-46831804

Billy O’Shea is seeking citizenship in Denmark, where he’s lived and worked for years, but is refusing to accept their recent requirement to include a handshake in the citizen ceremony. He says The government says the handshake is intended to show respect for Danish traditions and Danish culture, and I feel that you cannot impose respect by law. I feel that respect is something that arises in a democracy between people of equal status, equal rights, and it's not something that can be demanded. If you demand respect of people, what you receive will not be respect but submissiveness. He also complains that the requirement has been introduced at the last minute, when people have already negotiated years of other hurdles.

In Denmark as in Germany like elsewhere in the west, the handshake is also a gesture of sealing an agreement. And Denmark, like Germany, has a sizeable Muslim immigrant population and it’s hard to escape the suspicion that the recent Danish requirement is targeted at them. And perhaps the German official was looking over her shoulder at Denmark when she decided to withhold the citizenship certificate.

Nevertheless, O’ Shea says: I'm in no way at all trying to defend the religious practice of refusing to shake hands with a person of the opposite gender. I find that to be medieval and quite ridiculous, frankly.

And as a woman I have to say I agree with that.

DH has a very devout Muslim friend who won’t shake hands with any non-Muslim, male or female. He places his hand on his heart and bows, which is a gesture of respect, so DH returns the compliment. DH doesn’t like it, thinks it’s mediaeval too, but somehow being discriminated against on the grounds of religion doesn’t feel as bad to him as being discriminated against on the grounds of sex feels to me.

A lot depends on the degree of grace with which the handshake offer is refused, declined or deflected.

When I was teaching in inner London it wasn’t unusual to find dads who wouldn’t shake your hand as a female teacher. We even received training about it and how to be sensitive to the situation.

I’m conflicted. In a majority position in society, I felt fine about being gracious to these dads who wouldn’t shake my hand. I saw it as being respectful of their faith. On the other hand, if that became normal/common place in general life I would have a big problem with it. So... conflicted.