Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

Also, I find the idea of "honour killing" very problematic. We live in a country where several women are killed every week by a partner or ex-partner, often because they want to leave or have started a new relationship. This number has increased in recent years. Why are only "brown" men capable of honour killing? What do we call a white man killing his ex-wife because he doesn't want her to sleep with another man?

The concept of honour killing is cultural not something imposed by 'white' people. In the recent dramatization of an honour killing one of the victims relatives said in his own country he would have been hailed as a hero. It is a social act not simply an individual one.

PPs saying religion is incompatible with feminism that isn't accurate. Fundamentalist religion may well be incompatible but there are plenty of liberal Muslim/Christian/Jewish feminists.
I'm torn on this one because I don't think anyone, regardless of culture, should ever be told they MUST accept physical contact - which is what has happened here. He either had to shake someone's hand or be refused citizenship. If someone didn't want to shake hands due to OCD, or autism, or a broken arm would they also be denied citizenship? Nobody has an absolute right to touch another person, including this female official.

According to the article linked in the op, he "refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons."

When you take German citizenship you pledge out loud to uphold the German constitution. The constitution states that men and women are equal. Whatever his religious reasons, singling out women for no handshaking is at odds with the constitution (notwithstanding his later fudge that he wouldn't shake anyone's hand), thus his bid for citizenship could no longer be granted.

As for acing the naturalisation test, you'd have to be as dumb as a brick not to ace it, particularly if you'd lived in Germany for over a decade.

Guarantee to integrate to German living conditions and customs, especially no simultaneous marriage to several spouses

That seems pretty clear to me that he should be completely aware of the significance of handshaking in Germany society. And he would have known his citizenship application would depend on it. It was good that the government department and the law stuck up for the female official.

The conservative religious who were not making political statements did not shake hands with anybody out of respect for their non religious female colleagues.

See, this I can understand and respect because it's consistent. If you believe in physical contact only with close family members, then don't shake anyone's hands whether male or female. Treat everyone the same - whether it's a bow or hand over chest. Singling out the opposite sex is really rude and demeaning to the other person.

What tosh about honour killings being “problematic”. As pps have observed, the honour is about the family , not any spouse. Individuals may kill their partners for various reasons (money/jealousy) but the thought of a father killing his daughter or a brother killing his sister because of her lost honour and bringing disgrace on the family is to most of the world absolutely unthinkable.

I would say that certain cultural practices are most definitely not common to middle-class Muslims. I’m surprised at this doctor.

And we have more rights than men, by far. We have the right to request as much dowry we want at the wedding, whether it be a load of money or even just flowers or a shopping trip and go all out. We have the rights to property to go and work freely. Even in islamic law, women can go with another female witness to back her up in court, whereas men just go by themselves.

Muslim women certainly don't have more rights than men. That's nonsense. It's true that many and perhaps the majority of Muslims in the UK believe in fairness and equality between the sexes. But there are also communities in the UK where women are denied freedom of really any kind. When working in a deprived part of an inner city, I met women who had come to the UK as wives at the age of 13 or 14 and did not speak a word of English and had never been able to even get on a bus to go ten minutes into the city centre. The men there were often ones who would refuse to shake hands, or those who would try to walk into the women's centre and grab their wife out of the English class because she was needed to mind the shop, sort the kids out etc. Some of the men worked in the city centre, went out drinking, even had white girlfriends, but wouldn't tolerate their wife learning to read.

We need to stop pretending this isn't happening and that it isn't a problem.

@DilemmaDerby

PopsicleHustler that’s a lovely post, and I myself was married into the faith for over 20 years. But you are fundamentally missing the point. The fact that women are “pearls” the fact that men were told “to be good to them” the fact that they need a “dowry” to purchase them essentially is completely against Western beliefs of true equality. Men ANDA women should be good to each other, one should not pay for the other in matrimony, none should be treated as pearls as one is not responsible for the other.

Muslim culture as I experienced it is respectful, kind, generous and altogether good. But it is absolutely non feminist and there is an unequal bias towards men being the leading being. However kind and respectful they may be to their women, and however free their women may be. They are still their women and that’s wrong.

Yes, the very fact that Mohammed spoke to his followers to be good to 'their' women reminds me of that ghastly misogynist St Paul who spoke only to his 'brothers'. Women aren't even acknowledged in person, only as property.

This happened at an interview my husband was conducting (in the UK) a few years back. The male candidate refused to shake the hand of a woman on the panel for religious reasons. Unfortunately for him the woman was the head of the dept he was hoping to join.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines

I totally agree with what you said about it being cultural, rather than something being demanded by the Koran. My DW was born a Muslim, she shakes hands with people. All our relations in Iran, male and female, shake hands.

It is absolutely religious rather than cultural in not touching (unnecessarily) the opposite sex in Islam. I know many Muslim women who shake hands because they feel they have to, not because they feel fine about it. Equally there will be many who include hand shaking in the necessary category. Just because everyone knows a Muslim man in work who does it does not mean it is cultural.

Yes, what could possibly go wrong? It works so well in other areas.

Why the laughing emoji, @IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2?
It doesn't mean that you just rock up and declare yourself a citizen. There are a whole lot of conditions you have to fulfill -- length of stay in Germany, whether married to a German and if so how long, German language, no criminal record, etc.

When I became a citizen there was no personal contact at all, and I wasn't interviewed. It was all paperwork. They seem to have made it a bit more formal since then.

@draughtycatflap

This happened at an interview my husband was conducting (in the UK) a few years back. The male candidate refused to shake the hand of a woman on the panel for religious reasons. Unfortunately for him the woman was the head of the dept he was hoping to join.

karma's a bitch!

zatarontoast

If that was in reply to my post, then I stand by what I said. I have been married for over thirty years, half my family is Iranian and I have visited there several times. Is it religious or cultural when some Islamic communities/countries insist on women wearing the niqab or burqha, yet others simply require the woman to wear a headscarf or even no hair covering?

Yes, the very fact that Mohammed spoke to his followers to be good to 'their' women reminds me of that ghastly misogynist St Paul who spoke only to his 'brothers'. Women aren't even acknowledged in person, only as property

The Bible talks about man in the sense of "mankind" being a steward of animals etc. My farmer grandfather took this to mean he had a responsibility to look after his livestock to the best he could.

I can see that an instruction to be a good steward of livestock is a good and desirable.

So far as people, surely the instruction should be to all people to be kind and respectful to others?

@Andyoldlabour, it wasn't aimed at you, just the numerous posts claiming it is cultural. But to answer your question, the women's dress (chador) in Iran is cultural. There is nothing in Islam to prescribe this particular style of dress or colour.

zatarontoast

Sorry about that. I was just chatting to my DW and she said the chador is usually worn by more fundamentalist women, whereas the rest just wear a manteau (a shortish, light coat) and rooserie (headscarf).

However, I also think that there needs to be some concession in what is a formal ceremony as a gesture of gratitude(not the right word, acknowledgement?) of taking a respectful step into a different culture. Tolerance is a two way street, it's the absolute rigidity that is the problem. It wouldn't surprise me if there were vibes of arrogance.

I agree. Don't we all make minor concessions in order to get along? All religions have dictates that followers lapse on, ignore sometimes or reject. Rigidity of any religious person to a practice in all circumstances doesn't work in civil life. In his personal life, he can practice his religion and refuse handshakes all he wants. I make concessions when I'm in other people's cultures.

This was an official handshake. A mentally healthy person with knowledge of the German culture would know this handshake in this context isn't sexual or religious. It's exactly why most Muslims DO shake hands in social situations that expect it. This guy sounds like a rigid, sexist jerk, not a man of faith.

People of western European enlightenment heritage may not always feel totally comfortable shaking anotgher individual's hand either, let's not forget that! I quickly learned to choose my rings carefully when I visited one authority figure who seemed determined to assert his superior physical strength by grinding a finger-bone or two. And some handshakes are like expired fish. I did them to demonstrate my bona fides and show I was trustworthy. It would have been rude not to.

Refusing a proffered handshake is highly offensive in our culture, as demonstrated by the firefighters who wouldn't shake ScoMo's hand, and the desperate way he clutched at a couple of reluctant left hands.

Refusing a handshake says "I don't trust you, I don't respect you, I don't like you, I won't do business with you."

That citizenship was declined, not denied.

“ In islam, women are called beautiful Pearl's. And we have more rights than men, by far. We have the right to request as much dowry we want at the wedding, whether it be a load of money or even just flowers or a shopping trip and go all out. We have the rights to property to go and work freely. Even in islamic law, women can go with another female witness to back her up in court, whereas men just go by themselves.”

You sound brainwashed. It’s not that a woman “can bring a friend”, it’s that she will not be believed as her testimony is only half a man’s:

old.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/98bys4/hotd_207_islam_the_five_ways_a_woman_is_half_a/

Women are expected to stay at home:

www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/85bab2/hotd_289_muhammad_says_women_should_not_go/

Regarding touching men touching unknown women, it is not allowed:

www.reddit.com/r/exmuslim/comments/8hnkug/hotd_250_muhammad_says_touching_a_woman_is_worse/

A lot of awful hadiths are broken down here by a community of ex-muslims, including Mohammed allowing female sex slaves, saying women must serve their husbands sexually, and wanting women to breast feed strange men:

www.reddit.com/user/Ex-Muslim_HOTD

PopsicleHustler that’s a lovely post, and I myself was married into the faith for over 20 years. But you are fundamentally missing the point. The fact that women are “pearls” the fact that men were told “to be good to them” the fact that they need a “dowry” to purchase them essentially is completely against Western beliefs of true equality. Men ANDA women should be good to each other, one should not pay for the other in matrimony, none should be treated as pearls as one is not responsible for the othe.

Muslim culture as I experienced it is respectful, kind, generous and altogether good. But it is absolutely non feminist and there is an unequal bias towards men being the leading being. However kind and respectful they may be to their women, and however free their women may be. They are still their women and that’s wrong

I agree with all this. And as above posters says, women get to take a friend to court as they are inferior to men.

I don't want to be patronised as a beautiful pearl, I want to be regarded as a full human being equal to all other human beings.

And this 'beautiful pearl' thing applied to muslim women. Women who were the spoils of war had no bodily autonomy.

I agree with the ruling of the German court.

One of the reasons I support language teaching of the local language for anyone moving to another country is because of the attitudes of men such as this, who will discourage the women in the family from learning and speaking the local language to have some control over them.

@Whatwouldscullydo

I'm really torn on this tbh.

I mean its really disrespectful and i dont think i would want to be examined by a dr who holds such views about women.

But then I dont think anyone should be forced to touch anyone they don't consent to either...

Exactly this.

I think there are probably far worse indicators of misogyny than refusing to shake hands. Maybe it's a low bar.

Think it’s a fair decision tbh

I have a female friend who had this dilemma when going for her PHD graduation ceremony - she came from a religiously conservative family and was expected to not have physical contact with members of the opposite sex. She was a bit less hardcore than her family but of course they would be there to witness her graduation ceremony.

The difference was that she went and found out exactly who she would be expected to shake hands with and discussed with them and the uni how she could deal with the situation without causing distress or embarrassment to anyone, or interrupting the public ceremony in any way. The solution was that she wore rather elegant pair of evening gloves when she went to collect her degree, and shook hands with her gloves on, thus fulfilling both the obligations of her family/religious expectation to not touch someone of the opposite sex while still being respectful of the tradition of the university she was enrolled at and to the dean who was carrying out the ceremony. This was agreed in advance and so attracted no comments, I suspect very few of the audience even noticed she was wearing gloves or queried why, and it caused no issues with the public presentation.

Perhaps a difference of approach but I remember her focus being very much about sparing anyone embarrassment, causing bad feeling or social awkwardness rather than making a big statement about her beliefs on the day

@oldwhyno

I've read elsewhere that there was a bit more to it than the handshake. It raised other questions about his attitudes that left them to conclude overall that he held views incompatible with German culture.

Seeing it discussed here did make me wonder what this board's reaction would have been had it been a Muslim woman declining a handshake with a male official. I wonder if the outcome would have even been the same, or whether the authorities would have quickly found a female official to shake hands, and that would have been it, no story. Maybe this isn't a feminist issue at all, but a case of discrimination against a man....

I remembered there being more to the case too. Because a legal complaint was filed, you can read the full details here: lrbw.juris.de/cgi-bin/laender_rechtsprechung/document.py?Gericht=bw&nr=27204

Essentially, he refused to affirm a commitment to uphold German values. For example [translated, my German is rather poor]:

When asked by the court how he felt about the fact that, according to Islamic tradition, Mohammed married his third wife, named Aisha, when she was six years old and that he married her when she was nine years old, the plaintiff stated that there are girls in certain states [countries] who are more mature than, for example, girls in Norway.