Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

Why should you be gracious to them? They aren't affording you the same grace.

There simply is no justification for refusing to shake a woman's hand if they are willing to shake a man's hand.

When non-Muslim women visit places like Saudi Arabia, they're expected to wear some form of hijab out of "respect for the local culture."

But this guy doesn't feel he has to respect German culture in Germany?

He's shown pretty conclusively he hasn't integrated word one of German principles, equality before the law being a big chunk of it. If he can't see women as anything but handmaids because zomg-religion-zomg, he doesn't belong in any civilized country, let alone Germany.

In the workplace women are not and should not be regarded as beautiful beings. We are colleagues and equals.

All the main religious texts were written when women had little to no access to education or opportunities in the workplace. It is very dangerous to insist that customs from those times must be adhered to in the modern world.

I don't think shaking hands is in itself enough to be seen as an issue.

I have spoken to western progressive women who think any unnecessary social touching between men and women in workplaces should not happen because it is too easy for it to have sexual connotations or be used to create opportunities for contact. This is in the wake of MeToo mainly. I don't necessarily see this as different. I don't really agree with either but I don't think it necessarily denotes that individual is disrespectful to members of the other sex on the whole. It would depend on the rest of their behaviour.

@queenofknives.

You are absolutely spot on when you talk about Saudi Arabia's ways. They actually implement their own lifestyle and way of thinking into their culture. They dont really practice islam fully or wholeheartedly
For example, the ban on women driving is just ridiculous. I actually highly dislike Saudi Arabia. And so do a lot of other Muslims around the world. Saudi men are corrupt and greedy and treat their wives and even their maids like utter garbage. They go against the quran in more ways than one, so nothing they do is, is islamic. They drink and gamble. They dont help countries like Syria who are on absolute turmoil. One of the pillars of islam is to give charity. I could say a lot more.

I'm not saying all Saudis are like that but there is a reason why people are only interested in Saudi Arabia for one reason only. And that is to visit Mecca. It's sad that you pin point Saudi Arabia as if it reflects the whole of islam, it doesnt.

I am honest and happy to answer any genuine questions. But I have no idea about your comment on Iranian women. Could you elaborate please and I also hope youre doing well this morning.

I imagine she may well mean the enforcement of hijab on women.

Hi @NonnyMouse1337

Hope you're well. Am so happy you shared the verse from the quran. Yes, it is absolutely right that a woman can go in with her witness, to back her up as a woman gets nervous. I wish I had that when I went to Uk magistrates court years and years ago as I was literally shaking like a leaf and very nervous when it was my turn to have my say.

It is not because she wont be believed or have half a testimony. Sorry, that is not the case. I have studied and educated myself on this particular verse as I myself wasnt sure on its meaning as I too got the wrong end of the stick. But when I studied it and listening to a lecture about it, it made sense.

It says Call in two men as witnesses. But if two men are not available then call in only one man and two women socially one forgets the other will remind her.
Excellent. How great would it be to go to court with your sister or your best friend. One might have anxiety issues , al the other can speak on our behalf to say yes, I witnessed etc. I would love to have my best friend there to be back me up and be a support system for me.

Am sorry you feel its because she will not be believed, that is really not the case. I hope you have a lovely day

It says Call in two men as witnesses. But if two men are not available then call in only one man and two women socially one forgets the other will remind her. Excellent. How great would it be to go to court with your sister or your best friend. One might have anxiety issues , al the other can speak on our behalf to say yes, I witnessed etc

So a man will not forget but those silly women need a backup in case they forget 🙄

This is not equality. Twist it any way you like, it still appears anti-woman.

Replace the word woman with black/disabled and there is your answer.
I'm sick of all this religious/cultural blocks which perputrates misogyny . No excuse and no place for it. What the fuck is he doing as a doctor if he won't shake a woman's hand?I

Well done to this woman and I hope it won't be long before the UK starts acting like this too.

@dontwantamirena

Hope you're doing well today.

You are absolutely entitled to be anti religion. I dont know if you're atheist or agnostic. If you choose not to believe in religion, that is completely your choice. I respect everyone's choices and walks of life as long as they dont harm an animal or a person.

In regards to the breastfeeding issue. In the old days and actually I even believe it is done now in the west, if you were unable to breastfeed a newborn upto two years old, you acquired a wet nurse. I know a lot of people do this even in this day and age, hire a wet nurse to give their baby milk. Especially in the old days when formula was obviously not available.
Anyway, the point of the hadith you just shared is that a lady asked the prophet, what should I do because this little boy has seen me without hijab and has seen me wearing short clothes. (In the house we wear what the hell we like. Its on) The prophet replied that he should be given breast milk so then he is as seen as her Foster son. That way she can wear whatever she wants around him as he Is basically as good as her child.
I can 100% say that it is not a grown man. If it was the case, then I would be like what the heck. I can assure you 1 million percent it is not a man, but in fact a small child....

Thank you for recommending me to read the entire quran. I have read it fully several times, and not just in order of how it has been published but numerous ways also, including hadith.
Prophet Muhammed ways have never changed. Just so you know Prophet Muhammed didnt write the Quran. Allah is the author of the quran, it was revealed to prophet Muhammed by the Angel Gabriel. We call him Jibreel. In fact the quran is very solid and confirms so many miraculous things that scientists are just discovering today. I have also read the hadiths too and sometimes I too myself, need help clarifying some things with a little more explanation. My husband is very knowledgeable on islam and so he explains it so well and so beautifully.
I once downloaded an app on hadith and it was actually saying things that were down right disgusting and clearly made up by someone who has a hatred for islam. It's very easy to come across unfortunately people claiming to be ex muslims or even muslims. ... . That's why you have to make sure it is the authentic hadith.

In regards to having lots of children. Hahha, that might be true in my case. I am pregnant with number 5 and absolutely thrilled. I came from a really bad childhood and always said I wanted a big family and to give my children the best of what I never had. My husband and I love having children. We provide for them and do our best for them. We teach them right from wrong, play with them taken them days out and educate them too.

In a Muslim family, it is extremely important for the parents to teach islam to the children. Just like christian families do bible stories and take their children to church and so on. It is our job to teach the children the foundations and pillars of islam, to be kind and pious. To help the poor and the orphans. These are all important parts of our religion.

The Quran does say have offspring to grow the numbers of muslims in the world. The bible also says to have several children. And I have seen the later day saints have loads of children too. However it's your choice how many you want to have. I have numerous muslim friends who have only one or two, and some none. It's my choice to have a big family. I love children and my kids are all very close. I'd do anything for them.
When I tell people I have 4 and expecting number 5, I am told I am brave and how do I do it all. People think I have a nanny but hubby and I do it and all on our own. We both work hard and provide for them. No one goes without and everyone is happy.

There are people from all over the world who are mon muslim and have massive families. If they can do it, go for it.. ... who am I to judge...

You say you're anti religion. Does that mean you have a belief in God, but just not wanting to follow a faith?
Hope you dont mind me asking. Have a wonderful day.

If a man forgets then that's his problem. I understand a lot of people dont understand islam. Which is fine. But I have elaborated numerous times. @MangoFeverDream

@WagnersFourthSymphony

That is odd he wont shake hands with your Dh. My husband shakes hands with any man. It doesnt matter. And we are Muslim too. I shake hands with any female regardless if she is muslim or not.

Good. Thank goodness some countries are willing to take a stand.

@cheesemongery

Haha, I dont know where you heard that, about the bleeding. But that is absolutely not true. In islam a you just dont shake hands with the opposite gender unless they are a close relation to you.

However you still have to be courteous and respectful. My husband meets my female friends all the time, some are.muslim and some are not. He is very polite to them, asks them how they are and how is family and work and so on
Just because he doesnt shake their hands when they leave the house, doesnt mean hes a terrible person. It's just not the done thing in our religion. We are not sexist. It's just the way it goes.
I dont want to shake hands with men, I dont see the need to do it. I will still be polite and explain why. Theres no need for rudeness. Just simply say, I dont shake hands with men, so sorry.

Popsicle, I'm glad you found comfort and help in your faith, and I identify with much of what you describe of your life experience and why the Islamic religious lifestyle appeals to you. It's obvious that you are trying very hard to be gracious and explain your perspective here.

I think perhaps, though, you are giving aspects of the Islamic faith a very rosy hue in your desire to explain. I understand that, it's a huge part of your sense of self, and I have no wish to undermine that for you.

I hope you can see, however, how secular eyes like mine are going to look at your explanations and see some fairly limited apologetics for what is essentially sexist rules. I understand that you will not have that perspective, but on the feminist board, we will try and look at the situation for women from a broader view than the faith aspect. There are many other factors to consider, especially as not all share your faith.

@floralbunting.

Lovely name btw. I got mine from zootopia. Hope all is well with you and your family.

Thank you for your reply. I have found comfort in my faith , you're right. I actually was a Christian before I found islam. I was born a Christian and actually I still respect the church and call the Christian's my brothers and sisters. However christianity just wasnt for me and when I found islam, I was so happy and found that comfort.

I am sad you feel some of what I have written above may appear sexist. Would you mind elaborating?

As a muslim lady, i feel very free. I am free to express myself, free to do what I want and how I please. There is no sexism in Islam. Whatsoever.

There are amazing examples throughout the quran and hadith to show you to be kind and loving to your mother and your wife and female children. To provide money and gifts to your wife and show her affection.
In the quran, it actually says that heaven is at your mothers feet. I love that. I really do.

popsicle can it give examples of where the Qur'an lists scientific discoveries?

islamicpamphlets.com/womens-rights-in-islam

This is a very good read.

Emily bronte corset @emilybrontescorsett
Hope you're doing well.

Yes, I can definitely look into that for you. It is amazing. The quran goes into detail in regards to so many unique things like conception and how a baby was formed in the womb, this was written over 1400 years ago when technology obviously was not available. It's all incredible and blows your mind.

Scientists actually reverted to islam once they discovered this. Its unreal.

rationalreligion.co.uk/9-scientific-miracles-of-the-quran

m.youtube.com/watch?v=sWB-_bD9YWQ

@emilybrontescorsett there so many youtube videos available as well. You just have to search. That explains things written in the Quran that scientists have only found out in recent years.

I also reccomend listening to Yussuf Estes. Hes a really good teacher. He too was christian and reverted to islam. He explains it so well and so nicely

So, basically, the Quran contains some passages of waffly, poetic text, which, if taken out of context, bear some vague resemblance to particular scientific ideas?

Last video lol.
This is truly a touching video on Christian's finding islam. m.youtube.com/watch?v=iHFgcRGIrH0