Man denied German citizenship for refusing to shake woman's hand

[TweeBree]

Curious as to the general opinion on this? Previously, I think I would have sympathised with the immigrant. But now being more aware of how women are discriminated against, I support it 100%.

Excerpt:

A German court ruled on Friday that a Muslim man who refused to shake the hand of a woman should not receive German citizenship.

The 40-year-old Lebanese doctor, who came to Germany in 2002, said he refuses to shake women's hands for religious reasons.

The Administrative Court of Baden-Württemberg (VGH) ruled that someone who rejects a handshake due to a "fundamentalist conception of culture and values" because they see women as "a danger of sexual temptation" was thereby rejecting "integration into German living conditions."

The doctor studied medicine in Germany and now works as a senior physician in a clinic. He applied for citizenship through naturalization in 2012, for which he signed a declaration of loyalty to the German constitution and against extremism. He passed the naturalization test with the best possible score.

Nevertheless, he was not granted citizenship because he refused to shake hands with the responsible official when the naturalization certificate was handed over in 2015. The woman therefore withheld the certificate and rejected the application.

The court said that it made no difference that the man has now declared he will not shake hands with men either.

The man claimed he wanted to affirm the equality of men and women, but the court found that this was merely a tactical move.

Full article: www.dw.com/en/man-denied-german-citizenship-for-refusing-to-shake-womans-hand/a-55311947

Popsicle, I found comfort in Christianity myself for a while, after a hard start, so I do get that.

I will have to get back to you later, I'm actually in hospital and my battery is running low, but I didn't want you to think I wasn't responding.

@PopsicleHustler It’s interesting that you previously refused to believe the breastfeeding hadith existed, yet now, not only do you seem to know all about the meaning and have gone 180 on it being authentic, but you are in fact familiar with all the hadiths! Have you also changed your mind on the ones mentioning sex slaves?

Unfortunately you are mistaken about the story being about a boy. This was in the very first link I posted to this hadith. He was a grown man:
sunnah.com/muslim/17/33

You have also gone from asking why Islam is the fastest growing religion to confirming my reasons. It’s almost as if your husband who you repeatedly praise dictated your comment or that you are not as familiar with the texts are you claim. As you say there are many fake muslims online and I can’t help but be suspicious.

Regarding science, I’m still waiting for confirmation of jinns (bad spirits), angels, and flying horses.

To answer your question, no I don’t believe in god.

I actually want to clarify something I havwnt yet clarified before I get on with my day and I think I have filled up this feed enough with my long speeches, lol.

I think that this doctor, who wasnt granted the citizenship was disrespectful. He disnt want to shake the woman's hand. Fair enough. It doesnt matter whatever the reasons were, if he just prefers not to or because of his faith.
However the fact that other things were looked into, ie the fact he is from, or had ties with a radical group. And that was looked into as well, as to why he didnt get his citizenship. If that is the case then he is not a muslim brother to me if he is from a radicalised group and for that he should be locked up if he could put harm on someone.

When he couldnt shake the ladys hand, be could still have been polite and courteous to this lady and said am sorry madam, may I bow to you instead, I do not have the right to touch your hand. It is out of respect for her. People are not seeing this point. It is not about not being able to control yourself or temptations. It is about respecting the opposite gender. And also down to what I have mentioned before ie , you dont need to have skin to skin contact with anyone who is not your close relation. You still must maintain good manners and be polite and courteous to people.

If he is a doctor, maybe he only works with men only. There are thousands of female doctors who only work with women and have only female patients. That's their choices to do that ......

I wish everyone who has commented on this thread a very lovely day. God bless you and your families. Take care.

@dontwantamirena

It wasnt a grown man. Seriously.....come on.

The hadith you posted before from apparent muslim are all rubbish. I know you do desperately want it to be true. But it's not. These are stories made up by people who hate islam.

The same goes for sex slaves. The quran categorically states no sex before marriage..... So that doesnt make sense. Like I said there are several people in this world who hate Islam. They post rubbish and spout rubbish daily.
If you want to know the real islam, read the true quran and authentic hadiths.
There is nothing else left to say.
I wish you all the best in life..

@@floralbunting

Not a problem. Sorry to hear you're in hospital. I hope you're doing ok.

@PopsicleHustler Could you please link me the real breastfeeding hadith and where the age is given? You spoke about this in your previous post. Thanks.

Not a problem @dontwantamirena I will look that up for you shortly. Hope you have a nice day planned.

I think she made the right decision.

Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Mothers may breastfeed their children two complete years for whoever wishes to complete the nursing [period]”

[al-Baqarah 2:233].

@dontwantamirena

So as you can see here it says, that a woman should breastfeed her child for two years. But if you feel you want to stop before then ie, child is teething or your milk has stopped coming through as much, then you can stop.
This is the quran, not the hadith.

The hadiths on breastfeeding explain that if a woman adopts/fosters a baby or small child then she can allow that child to breastfeed. If he or she is to have more than 5 swallows of breast milk that's fine. That way the baby is as good as your own and can therefore see you without hijab. If a woman is to take on a child and adopt for example a 10 year old boy, she is not permitted to breastfeed him as that goes against the teachings of islam and basic morals.
There is no hadith that I can research for you to confirm that he wasnt a man. But there are numerous authentic true hadiths that state it is clear to breastfeed a baby or a small infant.

I can assure you, that there is no breastfeeding grown men. Or even grown women for that matter. Its disgusting. And not part of our faith. The quran itself confirms breastfeed til 2 years. ....

Have a great day.

But a doctor? How could he not touch women during his training

Quite possibly he’s happy to touch women when it’s needed for medical reasons?

I’m a midwife and I once looked after a female Muslim patient who anytime a male doctor came into the room would cover her head/face and also wouldn’t make eye contact with them. I politely pointed out to her that the following day she was going to have surgery and there would be a fair degree of nakedness while in the operating theatre and a lot of staff would be male. I was checking she was ok with this, she said it was fine because it was a medical necessity.

To be honest I’m on the fence about this. If he isn’t shaking her hand because he doesn’t respect women that’s wrong. But quite possibly in his mind he’s not shaking her hand because he respects her? I thought we should be tolerant of other’s religious beliefs and if he believes it shows a woman respect by not touching her I’m ok with that. I’d never offer to shake a male Muslims colleague’s hand as I wouldn’t want to embarrass him and I’m aware some may feel like this.

@JacobReesMogadishu

You're absolutely spot on the money with your comment. And you explained it even better than I did and I am the muslim .hahaha

@PopsicleHustler That surah is about a woman breast feeding her own children. Could you please name link the hadith you discussed before about breastfeeding an unrelated boy/man?

You said:
“Anyway, the point of the hadith you just shared is that a lady asked the prophet, what should I do because this little boy has seen me without hijab and has seen me wearing short clothes. (In the house we wear what the hell we like. Its on) The prophet replied that he should be given breast milk so then he is as seen as her Foster son. That way she can wear whatever she wants around him as he Is basically as good as her child.”

As you keep saying my links are incorrect and I would like to see the correct versions of Sahih Muslim 1453 a and Sunan Abu Dawood Hadith 2061.

Please provide links instead of copying text. I’m sure the correct versions will be easy to find online. Thanks.

Yes, it is absolutely right that a woman can go in with her witness, to back her up as a woman gets nervous.
It says Call in two men as witnesses. But if two men are not available then call in only one man and two women socially one forgets the other will remind her.
Excellent. How great would it be to go to court with your sister or your best friend. One might have anxiety issues , al the other can speak on our behalf to say yes, I witnessed etc.

Ah yes, the mental gymnastics some religious people, especially converts, will perform to justify their decisions to themselves. I think in many ways it's a lot easier for those born in a religion to question their beliefs than it is for converts to do so.

If you find your convoluted reasonings a useful way to get through your life, I wish you well. I doubt you'll convince many women on a feminist board that women are inherently nervous, anxious and forgetful and need a friend in court, while only one man's testimony is sufficient.

But a doctor? How could he not touch women during his training

I remember a group of female Muslim medical students refusing to attend seminars if male students were present in the room (this was a London medical school, 10+ years ago). I never quite understood how such strict beliefs around the separation of the sexes could make a good doctor either. Well, frankly, I don’t believe it can.

•If a man forgets then that's his problem. I understand a lot of people dont understand islam. Which is fine. But I have elaborated numerous times

Sorry, it’s incredibly sexist to hold women to lower standards. Which is what this example does.

In Islam the mixing of sexes is discouraged and that includes touching, gazing, interecting, etc. As a result, women are often discouraged from entering male-dominated spaces such as the workplace, cafes and spending time in the street. If she chooses to go out, it is prefferable they are covered. Covered women are viewed as more virtuous, I guess. That's all I wish to add to the thread.

Surely it doesn't matter what Islam does or doesn't say. To get citizenship in Germany you have to show willingness to fit in with mainstream German culture.

Shaking hands is clearly just an expected part of German culture such that someone refusing to do it is showing they are fundamentally wishing to retain another culture instead. This person had stated that they wanted German citizenship.

I can't work out why women are arguing it's respectful to women to refuse to shake their hand. In German, and in English culture this would be rude.

@nearertonature

That doesn't make sense. Why would "GC" want citizenship of such a country?

Sigh. Talk about deliberately missing the point...

I have the time if you have the patience. What point am I missing?

@Malahaha

Yes, what could possibly go wrong? It works so well in other areas.

Why the laughing emoji, @IwishNothingButTheBestForYou2?
It doesn't mean that you just rock up and declare yourself a citizen. There are a whole lot of conditions you have to fulfill -- length of stay in Germany, whether married to a German and if so how long, German language, no criminal record, etc.

When I became a citizen there was no personal contact at all, and I wasn't interviewed. It was all paperwork. They seem to have made it a bit more formal since then.

Sorry, Malahaha, I thought you were making a joke.

Apologies.

Islam doesn't have the equivalent of 'render unto caesar..'. the state is always subservient to the faith. I understand the concept of 'fighting and dying for one's country' is completely alien to Islam, however 'fighting and dying for Islam' is a different matter.

not sure what you mean here. The German citizenship process is very very clear on the matter. You are required to swear an oath (and it's a secular oath) that you will respect the constitution, obey the law and do nothing that brings harm to the German state. (It's only about 18 months since i swore it myself).

This means that nothing must come above your loyalty to the state. (there are complicated exceptions for those with dual or multiple nationalities where if you're, say, liable for national service in another country you can't claim you can't do it due to also being German. This is one of the reasons some dual citizenships are not allowed)

The actual reason for the refusal of citizenship, and you can think what you like about how the judge interpreted this man's answers, is that, in effect, he believed that if this man swore this oath it would be a lie. Because bottom line is that he doesn't believe that women are equal.

The 3rd article of the German constitution states all people are equal before the law. This comes after 2 articles stating that human dignity is unviolable and that everyone has the right to free development of his personality.

The articles regarding faith (and conscience) come after those - so we can see the heirarchy of rights/responsibilities right from the start. It is good and proper that they are in that order and that the German state is careful about to whom they give citizenship.

The handshake is a great headline but it is the tip of the iceberg. It's like those stories of British spies being discovered in WW2 because when counting past 3 on their fingers they did it in the wrong order. That in itself is neither here nor there, but it is an indicator of something much deeper.

I'm not saying all Saudis are like that but..

What a bloody great thread.

Very sorry to hear that you are in hospital, Floral. Hope everything goes well.

This is one of the reasons some dual citizenships are not allowed

Almost all dual citizenships are not allowed in Germany. Apart from EU nations, I'm aware of Brazil, and this only because, I believe, Brazil doesn't allow you to renounce citizenship. There may be more. I haven't checked in ages, but that is the criteria: that your country does not allow renunciation.
I had to renounce mine.

True it's almost all but there are exceptions, you'll remember the whole can of worms about dual nationality with Turkey?

TBH for people like me I'd be fine with "nope you can only keep one" - i only stay British for the convenience of visiting my aging family members and the fact that, of course, it costs a fair amount to renounce British citizenship. If it were free I'd reconsider.

PopsicleHustler does your husband cover his hair and face in front of everyone but his relatives like you do?

If not you have your answer on if the sexes are treated differently right there.

Also Yes, it is absolutely right that a woman can go in with her witness, to back her up as a woman gets nervous. I’ve been to court in my own, will probably do so again if my rape case ever makes it. I didn’t get any more spectacularly nervous than a man would. To assume because I am a woman I would is inherently sexist. I don’t know how you can’t see that?