Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

@Kit19

Fucking hell - so the solution is to make women’s toilets open to any rapey bloke?

It’s nice to have it confirmed you don’t give a shit about women

Honestly, if I thought for a second there was any preventable risk from allowing people to use toilets inline with their gender then I would think differently. But I don't think there's any evidence that and I think any attempt to police toilets on the basis of birth sex would have a horrifying impact, and not just on trans women. I can't imagine a more effective social device to enforce patriarchal standards of femininity - which is precisely why the Republican baptist belt politicians were are so keen on it.

Right but a quick Google shows there's no actual law against it unlike say, disabled parking spaces where you can obvs be fined for using.

Just saying if a trans person were to use them in the absence of other gender neutral toilets, it's better than them being forced to use the mens toilets which must be very uncomfortable for them. And also for trans men too as they're obviously not going to want to use the women's toilets either.

Honestly, if I thought for a second there was any preventable risk from allowing people to use toilets inline with their gender then I would think differently.

The problem is that 'gender' has no meaning, and the reason for separate toilet provision is sex.

You have made an argument for people who 'pass' to be able to use the toilet associated with the sex they are perceived to be. However, that is not the same as using a toilet inline with your gender.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

You really think someone who looks like Monroe Bergdorf or Paris Lees would be safe late at night in a dodgy nightclub toilet with a drunk rapey bloke?

Drunk rapey blokes also attack young men, small men, pretty men, men who don't dress conventionally -- though the presence of other men might scare them off.

Self-ID would allow those drunk rapey blokes to stroll into the women's loos whenever they wanted, and with no other men there to deter them. So MB and PL might actually be safer in the gents.

More importantly to me, women's toilets are a safe place for women. As soon as we allow male-bodied adults in if we think they're harmless, we allow every male-bodied adult in.

Those young or small men are not at anywhere near the same risk of sexual violence as trans women.

Self ID reforms are gone. And self ID regarding bathroom provision, has been happening for decades and the things you are worried about haven't happened. The women's toilets aren't all full of men claiming to be women as a pretext to attacking people. It's just not happening, and the longer it goes on not happening, as trans inclusive policies are adopted all over the world, then the less strength this argument will have. I think that's why sometime people fail to be convinced about GC arguments, we are told these contrived horror stories about women's spaces full of predatory men claiming to be trans but it's not something anyone is actually experiencing in their actual lives.

Honestly, if I thought for a second there was any preventable risk from allowing people to use toilets inline with their gender then I would think differently. But I don't think there's any evidence that and I think any attempt to police toilets on the basis of birth sex would have a horrifying impact, and not just on trans women. I can't imagine a more effective social device to enforce patriarchal standards of femininity - which is precisely why the Republican baptist belt politicians were are so keen on it.

Thankfully, UK is not the USA and different laws apply!

Regardless, males ate men and females are women in both countries.

Public communal spaces in UK are designated by sex not by "gender".

This means that the UK recognises that there is a difference between being of the female sex and being what some perceive to be a feminine person.

In the UK, being a feminine person does not equate with being of the female sex.

The UK recognises officially that there is a distinctive difference between sex and gender.

Hence, sex self-ID has been rejected here.

I'm angry that women are being pitted against people with disabilities in this way. FPFW should not be telling women to use disabled facilities. Non-disabled women should not be using them if they don't have a medical need.

But I can understand why, for some women, it would be lock yourself safely in the disabled loo or stay at home. Which suits the misogynists just fine.

The women's toilets aren't all full of men claiming to be women as a pretext to attacking people.

Who needs to claim to be a woman?

Whenever you talk about 'decades' your argument stops making sense, because you are talking about people who would have been regarded as transexuals in the past, not all the people currently included under the term 'trans'.

@jj1968 well said. I totally agree with you.

I do wish more toilets were single occupancy though in general. As we move further into the future I feel less comfortable being around anyone. Do they need to have a communal area??

@merrymouse

Honestly, if I thought for a second there was any preventable risk from allowing people to use toilets inline with their gender then I would think differently.

The problem is that 'gender' has no meaning, and the reason for separate toilet provision is sex.

You have made an argument for people who 'pass' to be able to use the toilet associated with the sex they are perceived to be. However, that is not the same as using a toilet inline with your gender.

You have made an argument for people who 'pass' to be able to use the toilet associated with the sex they are perceived to be. However, that is not the same as using a toilet inline with your gender.

I was highlighting that it seems absurd to claim trans women are not at risk using men's toilets when if they pass of course they are. And I know you probably won't believe it but even if they don't pass they are at equal risk, because a lot of straight men are sexually weird around trans women unfortunately.

You can't legislate based on passing either. It doesn't feel great to me that if single sex spaces were brought under legal enforcement to say trans women who pass can just break the law.

I don't agree with FPFW or Maya on this, but I do think they deserve some credit for coming up with an attempt at a solution, even if it's one that proves unacceptable to most. Because just sort out male violence or campaign for your own spaces do not answer the problem of what you expect trans people to do now if you seek to prevent them using spaces inline with their gender.

Can men who ignore that refusal to consent be regarded as any better than any rapist?

Really??

And self ID regarding bathroom provision, has been happening for decades and the things you are worried about haven't happened.

No it hasn't. People who have appeared to be female have been going in unnoticed, and there has been a certain tolerance to people who are assumed to be transsexuals.

People have absolutely not been allowing people with beards calling themselves non-binary in, which is what is currently being advocated by many. You are on board with that, right?

Or are you saying that only people who pass as female should be permitted?

these contrived horror stories about women's spaces full of predatory men claiming to be trans

Hey, you should check out the Barbie Kardashian and simulated pregnancy threads while you're here. You might learn something.

I think any attempt to police toilets on the basis of birth sex would have a horrifying impact, and not just on trans women. I can't imagine a more effective social device to enforce patriarchal standards of femininity

What? It hasn't been a problem in the 100-plus years we've had men's and women's separate public toilets. You can't be seriously suggesting that society is suddenly going to start banning women like me, in unisex clothes with no make-up?

Before men started using women's toilets, no one looked twice at big women who didn't look conventionally feminine. Now, there is always the risk that this is a cross-dressing man.

I still wouldn't challenge them, unless he was eg bearded or exposing his penis, because it would be so hurtful to a woman who just happened to look masculine. But it's men's actions that have cast this shadow, not women's.

And I know you probably won't believe it but even if they don't pass they are at equal risk, because a lot of straight men are sexually weird around trans women unfortunately.

But again, because nobody is prepared to explain what trans means, under self ID they are all welcome in the women's toilet, because to exclude anyone would be gate keeping. What does "straight" mean?

Because just sort out male violence or campaign for your own spaces do not answer the problem of what you expect trans people to do now if you seek to prevent them using spaces inline with their gender

Perhaps 'trans' used to mean something, but in 2020 you might as well be arguing that toilets should be segregated according to star sign.

If you want to argue that segregation by gender makes trans people safer, you have to explain what gender means and who can be excluded.

[quote CloudyVanilla]@jj1968 well said. I totally agree with you.

I do wish more toilets were single occupancy though in general. As we move further into the future I feel less comfortable being around anyone. Do they need to have a communal area??[/quote]
May I suggest you ask women this question? I think you may find the answer is yes since women are inclined to support their sisters who are having a difficult experience in their private spaces.

Such difficult experiences may involve a miscarriage, a troublesome menstrual period, a difficulty managing a child for any reason. All sorts of conversations and supporting experiences happen in women's private communal spaces.

The fact that such experiences do not happen in men's private communal spaces does not equate with the experience of women.

Personally, I have often volunteered to "babysit" a child while the mother attends to her needs in a closed cubicle. That mother can hear every word I say and knows that my talking reassures her that her child is coming to no harm. There is a high degree of trust among women that is carefully accrued in their private communal spaces.

The presence of men violating that space destroys such trust. And it is possible that this is their intent; to destroy the solidarity that women can create among themselves.

Well it's horses for courses then, maybe I'm just too introverted but I don't feel super comfortable in the communal areas of toilets. Not overly so but I definitely prefer it when I go to a small shop that has a single toilet. Perhaps I am an outlier. I do think it is presumptuous though to assume that all women would want or need support with feminine issues in those situations, or that those occurrences are frequent.

Although I do agree I have spent many a night in a toilet on a night out talking to other women. Perhaps you're right and I've just never found myself in one of those situations in public.

FPFW aren't telling women to use them. They're telling those who are not women but who want to use the ladies toilet to use them instead of the ladies

You're right Spartacus, on re-reading I see that is their message. But I disagree either way. Being disabled is challenging enough without being kept waiting, possibly with a painful bladder, by people who don't need special facilities.

But I disagree either way. Being disabled is challenging enough without being kept waiting, possibly with a painful bladder, by people who don't need special facilities.

And as with all issues involving toilets, women need accessible toilets more than men, so its doubly cloth eared to suggest that the already limited facilities accommodate more people.

Women are inclined to support their sisters who are having a difficult experience in their private spaces.... There is a high degree of trust among women that is carefully accrued in their private communal spaces. The presence of men violating that space destroys such trust. And it is possible that this is their intent; to destroy the solidarity that women can create among themselves.

I agree 100%.

And I know you probably won't believe it but even if they don't pass they are at equal risk, because a lot of straight men are sexually weird around trans women unfortunately

Please explain to me why this is women's problem? This is a problem that men have with other men. There's no right to use women's spaces just because someone is wearing dresses and makeup.

@CloudyVanilla

Well it's horses for courses then, maybe I'm just too introverted but I don't feel super comfortable in the communal areas of toilets. Not overly so but I definitely prefer it when I go to a small shop that has a single toilet. Perhaps I am an outlier. I do think it is presumptuous though to assume that all women would want or need support with feminine issues in those situations, or that those occurrences are frequent.

Although I do agree I have spent many a night in a toilet on a night out talking to other women. Perhaps you're right and I've just never found myself in one of those situations in public.

It is possible you are an "outlier" Cloudy.

Most women I know never hesitate to support another women who is having some sort of difficulty / experiencing some sort of stress since they have experienced similar at some point and know what they needed at such a time. Women frequently have an empathy at such times - sometimes in some circumstances such empathy is labelled as "women's intuition".

So TW are at risk from men in men's toilets. But women are not at risk from men in women's toilets? Is that right? Men are horribly risky to TW but magically no risk to women. And removing the thing (single sex provision) that was there for women's protection (because of the risk men present to TW) won't increase the risk to women because these very risky men are no risk.

Amazing news.

@merrymouse

The women's toilets aren't all full of men claiming to be women as a pretext to attacking people.

Who needs to claim to be a woman?

Whenever you talk about 'decades' your argument stops making sense, because you are talking about people who would have been regarded as transexuals in the past, not all the people currently included under the term 'trans'.

I'd dispute that tbh. I think there are more trans people, as in what used to be called transsexual, who are out these days, and there's been the growth of non-binary identities, and obviously there has been a large growth in visible trans men. But there's always been gender queer people and androgynous people and crossdressers and transvestites and many of them used spaces inline with the gender they were presenting as at the time, there's just so few of them barely anyone noticed. In addition not all 'transsexuals' back then sought medical transition, or were in the midst of transition which actually takes quite a long time and for which, under the real life test they would have been encouraged to use spaces inline with their gender. Non binary people aside, who mostly support unisex or gender neutral spaces, I don't actually think the character of transgender has changed that much. The trans women and trans men using single sex spaces are still by and large people who live in that gender full time, who may be medically transitioning, or intending to transition, or not, just as they always were.

Please don't equate my lack of comfortability in large communal toilets with a lack of empathy

Women can communicate with other women outside of a toilet.