Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Is there any evidence of transwomen being assaulted in men's toilets? Being sexually assaulted by strangers?

I'm not disbelieving you for a second @jj1968 but this is a line that's trotted out time and again and I've never seen any stats on it. If you have any, I'd be really interested

and there's been the growth of non-binary identities

Please can you define "non-binary identities" @jj1968 ?

Are such people those who have zero biological sex?

@WarOnWomen

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Well, I think it is about numbers really. How do we know how many toilets, and accessible toilets are required in a given place? Usually it's based on building codes and the type of facility, for every so many users you need so many toilets. And then so many accessible toilets.

The % that should be accessible is based on the number of people who need some sort of specialised toilet, not necessarily just on how many people are disabled in some official way. So it might include someone with a broken leg which will heal, but who cannot use the regular facility for a time. No one thinks that requires them to prove a need - the realise themselves that the regular toilet won't work.

Theoretically you could decide that people who cannot use sex specific toilets could also be included, you'd need to work out what extra burden that would place and how many new toilets would be required to meet the increased need. I tend to think that trans people should use sex specific bathrooms normally, and it is only a few instances where that won't work that third spaces are needed, so that might be a tiny number and workable. If you wanted to widen that it could mean a lot of extra accessible bathrooms.

@jj1968 even if a man is not predatory: I still don't want to share intimate places where I get undressed such as changing rooms or showers with him.
I don't even get undressed in front of my own son (35y), and he always knocks before entering my bedroom. I don't undress in front of my son-in-law, son-in-laws father, stepbrothers, male friends -- any man, in fact. They are not at all predatory and they would never assault me. I trust them. But:
It's called privacy. All women I know are like that.

But there's always been gender queer people and androgynous people and crossdressers and transvestites and many of them used spaces inline with the gender they were presenting as at the time, there's just so few of them barely anyone noticed

They were called New Romantics and Goths. Certainly people have always used opposite sex toilets, and I can picture exactly the kind of 'sensitive soul' who would have followed girls into the toilets 30 years ago when I was a student.

The difference is they wouldn't have argued that it was their right to do so, and the student union wouldn't have thought twice about evicting them.

It's called privacy. All women I know are like that.

Exactly so, Malahaha. Very well said.

It's also called respect for the human autonomy and human dignity of the female sex class.

@Clymene

Is there any evidence of transwomen being assaulted in men's toilets? Being sexually assaulted by strangers?

I'm not disbelieving you for a second @jj1968 but this is a line that's trotted out time and again and I've never seen any stats on it. If you have any, I'd be really interested

Not the addressed poster but I was interested in this. Intuitively it just made sense to me that LGBTQ people were more at risk of sexual assault because I think like a pp said men can be weird and violent against non gender conforming people. I did find a discussion of a study on the NCBI website:

Our exploratory results indicated that sexual assault disproportionately affects several sexual-, gender-, and racial/ethnic-minority subgroups. Transgender people had higher odds of sexual assault than cisgender men and women, and Black transgender people had significantly higher odds of sexual assault than White transgender people. Like in previous studies (American College Health Association, 2012,2013,2014;Cantor et al., 2015;Krebs et al., 2016;Sinozich & Langton, 2014), cisgender women had higher odds of sexual assault than cisgender men, but gender modified the effects of sexual identity and race/ethnicity on sexual assault. For example, being bisexual, unsure of one’s sexual identity, Black, or of other race/ethnicity increased the odds of sexual assault more for cisgender men than for cisgender women. Though these relative differences were greater among cisgender men than women, the absolute differences for these groups were relatively similar

Trans gender people certainly are at an increased risk of sexual assault by pretty much any statistic I've ever seen and again intuitively that seems to fit. I think predatory men can be incensed by femininity and not just womanhood.

By any means, I cannot find it justifiable in any compassionate way to expect a trans woman to share a toilet with men. At worst they should be within their rights to use single occupancy toilets.

*But there's always been gender queer people and androgynous people and crossdressers and transvestites and many of them used spaces inline with the gender they were presenting as at the time, there's just so few of them barely anyone noticed"

Oh they are noticed alright for the men they are. Women have good reason to fear men for their violence toward women and so they remain silent. Such men interpret such silence as acquiescence because they are so entitled in their violation of women that they cannot even see the fear of women.

I'm happy to get changed on a beach in full view of everyone.

However, I also don't understand why Malala's wish for privacy shouldn't be respected, particularly if its just to avoid offending a man who wants to use the fitting rooms next to women's lingerie in M&S because "for all they know he might be trans".

We don't all have to agree to respect other people's needs.

Trans gender people certainly are at an increased risk of sexual assault by pretty much any statistic I've ever seen and again intuitively that seems to fit. I think predatory men can be incensed by femininity and not just womanhood.

By any means, I cannot find it justifiable in any compassionate way to expect a trans woman to share a toilet with men. At worst they should be within their rights to use single occupancy toilets.

@CloudyVanilla then you should be campaigning for separate spaces for such men perhaps?

The space for such men is not the spaces designated for the female sex class [women and girls], surely?

@BalhamWoman that is a strong element of projection though isn't it? Is there any quantifiable evidence of how many women feel that way?

Not saying that there isn't. But it's quite an emotive statement to make if their is no evidence to back it up. I for one don't feel that way about trans women using the same toilet as me.

Does the law actually say in the UK that disabled persons who have some sort of official recognition can use those toilets? And that the accessible spaces have to be exclusive? Because there is a difference in saying that as a group the disabled have a right to adequate provisions for toilets, and saying that they have to have separate, exclusive toilets.

Goosefoot

But why increase the amount of accessible toilets just to accommodate trans people. If there is room to expand, create unisex toilets for trans/non binary/people who don't care either way?

Accessible toilets are needed for people with disabilities and medical conditions. They are not there for all and sundry. It doesn't look like FPFW even consulted relevant groups before throwing them under the bus. Nic talks about consent but has come across as hypocritical.

It's not realistic though is it. And given their small proportion of the population I feel it would be even more of a source of abuse for them. I can fully imagine a load of transphobic weirdos hanging around any toilets specifically designated for trans gender people. Just single occupancy toilets would be a better solution surely.

@Clymene

Is there any evidence of transwomen being assaulted in men's toilets? Being sexually assaulted by strangers?

I'm not disbelieving you for a second @jj1968 but this is a line that's trotted out time and again and I've never seen any stats on it. If you have any, I'd be really interested

Trans women have never used men's toilets so there's no direct evidence. There's no direct evidence that a non trans woman using men's toilets would be at risk either for the same reason. But I think common sense suggests both would be at risk. There is ample evidence that trans women face sexual violence from men at comparable rates, or possibly even higher rates to non trans women* so it seems reasonable to assume that a trans woman using the men's toilets would be at least as at risk as a non trans women using the men's toilets.

*there's a brief summary on this with sources here: ovc.ojp.gov/sites/g/files/xyckuh226/files/pubs/forge/sexual_numbers.html

[quote CloudyVanilla]@BalhamWoman that is a strong element of projection though isn't it? Is there any quantifiable evidence of how many women feel that way?

Not saying that there isn't. But it's quite an emotive statement to make if their is no evidence to back it up. I for one don't feel that way about trans women using the same toilet as me.[/quote]
Perhaps I can refer you, in a first instance, to the independent poll results located on the Fair Play For Women web site?

fairplayforwomen.com/poll/

Or unisex toilets yes.

Should be "only" in my post above, ie persons not officially disabled but needing extra space, for example due to pregnancy.

I suppose the best evidence that women don't want to share toilets with men might be that in just about every country in the world there are separate toilets for the sexes. I am pretty sure this didn't come about by chance and it also seems unlikely that this situation has evolved at men's behest.

Lots of people would access unisex loos: younger men and women don't seem to care as much, non-binary, TM and TW.

@EvenSupposing

I suppose the best evidence that women don't want to share toilets with men might be that in just about every country in the world there are separate toilets for the sexes. I am pretty sure this didn't come about by chance and it also seems unlikely that this situation has evolved at men's behest.

Indeed, In fact the UN demands such for the female sex in what is called the "third world".

From a decade ago: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/57a09ddded915d622c001c13/presentation__sanitation_and_violence_against_women.pdf

@WarOnWomen

Goosefoot

But why increase the amount of accessible toilets just to accommodate trans people. If there is room to expand, create unisex toilets for trans/non binary/people who don't care either way?

Accessible toilets are needed for people with disabilities and medical conditions. They are not there for all and sundry. It doesn't look like FPFW even consulted relevant groups before throwing them under the bus. Nic talks about consent but has come across as hypocritical.

I think there isn't actually one right answer.

But from my perspective, I think we don't need unisex toilets necessarily mandated though in some places they are useful. In general I think people should base usage on sex rather than gender, especially if we are talking about people who are essentially crossdressers or non-binary.

There may however still be a small number for whom that won't work. Some established older transmen for example who might be read as men. I don't think it would be enough to justify unisex toilets, maybe not enough to increase the need for accessible toilets at all. But I also don't know that I think they should go in with men who may not want females in their spaces. There might even be the odd person with acute dysphoria, but again, I think that's rare.

I think those fall under the heading of a medical condition or real barrier essentially. Everything else is aesthetics and I don't really like the idea of creating a new category for that.

@EvenSupposing absolutely but it's reasonable to assume people may make a distinction between men and trans women.

@BalhamWoman that's an interesting source thank you. I do find if notable though that the actual question of public toilets is left out. Changing rooms are quite different IMO, especially as changing rooms are mostly properly communal, unlike toilets which only have a communal area