Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Just making the point MB is considerably bigger than all the ppl in that picture

Do you not see the sense of male entitlement here? That sense of entitlement males have to violate women because of life choices they have made and regardless of the consent of those women?

This.

I'm also not breaking the law if I use an accessible facility because it's more convenient with a pushchair. That doesn't mean I should or that I shouldn't expect push back if I start to campaign for all blue badge parking spaces to be open to parents with children.

I think this tough shit if you get raped it's not our problem attitude really reveals a deep sense of callousness within some GC circles.

Erm, wut?

We're constantly being told that women are raped all the time anyway, so what's the big deal creating loopholes to make it easier? And women who have been raped should just 'get therapy then', or not go to the toilet/changing rooms/shelters.

Look at what Stonewall retweeted after self id was scrapped.

That's fucking callous. I've never once heard a gender crit suggest it's fine if a transwoman is raped We get plenty of it, though, like it's something we should be willing to accept to please everyone but ourselves.

“ I think this tough shit if you get raped it's not our problem attitude really reveals a deep sense of callousness within some GC circles”
How dare you? Your ‘solution’ is to let trans-identifying men in to women’s spaces. The best, safest way to ensure that WOMEN are not raped is to have clearly defined single sex spaces and allowing trans-identifying-men in removes blurs that clarity.

@merrymouse

I'm also not breaking the law if I use an accessible facility because it's more convenient with a pushchair. That doesn't mean I should or that I shouldn't expect push back if I start to campaign for all blue badge parking spaces to be open to parents with children.

Except that there are separate designated parking spaces for those with disabilities and parents with children to the best of my knowledge.

Most people with a sense of social civility and cohesion acknowledge and respect such designations and use all the other available parking spaces.

Surprised and disappointed at FPFW. Isn't this moot anyway? The people we're talking about specifically want access to women's spaces - because it "validates" their identities - it was never about safety from other men. And even if it was, that isn't our problem to solve.

The best, safest way to ensure that WOMEN are not raped is to have clearly defined single sex spaces and allowing trans-identifying-men in removes blurs that clarity.

And that even applies for the previously-presented "fully-passing transwoman" scenario.

If that person is at risk from males, because they pass, and they can get into a women's toilet undetected, because they pass, their safety is maximised by not letting anyone visibly detectable as male into women's toilets.

Why would anyone want to endanger fully-passing transwomen?

Agree Necessary.

@BalhamWoman

It's not though is it, you might like it to be, but the reality is that trans people have been using toilets inline with their acquired gender for decades.

Without the consent of women and causing much fear in women and girls when knowing that a man is in their private space. So terrorised are girls and women with such men's behaviour that they are terrified to say anything for fear of their own safety.

Such is the depth and breadth of male entitlement to violate women and girls.

Yes, I agree it's about consent. FPFW are correct about that. But how can FPFW then turn around and say "look, accessible toilets, lets expand the bandwidth on these." They haven't answered any questions on whether they consulted disability groups about whether they consent.

@LindaEllen

At my university, instead of the space that would have been taken up by two separate sets of toilets, there were instead 6 mixed toilets, which each included a toilet, a sink and a hand dryer.

These were in one building only, and I always headed for them when I needed to loo.

It will take a LONG time to replace all toilets with ones like those, but I honestly do think they're the future.

I don't like this at all. I don't like sharing loos with strange men, frankly. They are known to spray urine on the floor, pee on seats, leave the seats up so we have to touch them to lower them. Also there is the very real possibility of them installing tiny spy cameras. It has happened.

Also, they stink. Male urine does have a distinct and stronger smell than that of females.

a young trans woman who passes as a woman

Do you know what, I will give you that one jj, if men "pass" as women they are welcome to use the ladies, because we won't even notice will we?

Now, the transwomen I see when I go to Women in Tech events, or at the cinema, or at festivals, or at feminist meetings, or I see on TV, these people are quite clearly male, so they should carry on using the facilities appropriate to their obvious sex.

I disagree actually. They say disabled accesssible not disabled only

@CloudyVanilla

I disagree actually. They say disabled accesssible not disabled only

Indeed they do. Thanks for the reminder.

Why would anyone want to endanger fully-passing transwomen?

Ah, that idea that men are dangerous to other men so women must protect them? Then if a man gets hurt it is Women’s fault not the man who commits the act of violence?

I suggest you ask the above question of men not women? If a transwoman is in danger from other men then you need to tackle men about it.

You really think someone who looks like Monroe Bergdorf or Paris Lees would be safe late at night in a dodgy nightclub toilet with a drunk rapey bloke?

Drunk rapey blokes also attack young men, small men, pretty men, men who don't dress conventionally -- though the presence of other men might scare them off.

Self-ID would allow those drunk rapey blokes to stroll into the women's loos whenever they wanted, and with no other men there to deter them. So MB and PL might actually be safer in the gents.

More importantly to me, women's toilets are a safe place for women. As soon as we allow male-bodied adults in if we think they're harmless, we allow every male-bodied adult in.

As someone who has disabilities that mean using a normal toilet is much more difficult, and as a mum of a wheelchair user, I can tell you that the provision for disabled toilets is already less than demand. There are already people with children, dogs, a lot of shopping, etc who use them. As well as those who apologetically say, 'the queue was a bit long,' as they leave. I'm not sure when disabled toilets became toilets for anybody that fancies them, but I would ask those that use them needlessly to remember that some disabled people have much more urgent toilet needs than the norm.

Why would anyone want to endanger fully-passing transwomen?

I think the point being made is that if fully-passing transwomen aren't safe in men's loos, why is Stonewall arguing that any man should be able to follow them into the women's loos?

Decent members of society who can access standard provisions don't use accessible provisions.

Yes, this is the point.