Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

waronwomen I read the whole thread, but anything after "these facilities already exist" is based on a false premise.

Yeah I'm surprised at this thread, very surprised.
Does Nic Williams have an intern at the ipad today?

Being trans isn't a disability.

There is an excellent network of accessible facilities – set up originally for wheel chair users – but their purpose is now much wider. They are available to anyone who needs an accessible alternative.

Is unfortunately complete and utter bollocks.

There is not excellent network of facilties, and nobody has agreed that their purpose should be wider.

I feel let down that FPFW should suggest this when "unofficial back door policy change" is exactly the weapon that has been deployed by TRAs.

(Sorry there is NO excellent network of facilities)

Can someone tell me what you actually expect trans people to do when they need the toilet out in public?

I don't think this is right. These are facilities for people with disabilities / health issues. An additional half a million people using these spaces because of gender feelings is not on. If they don't have a GRC, or at least can actively prove they are working towards one, then they need to use the designated space of their own sex, or campaign for another space, just like women and disabled people have done.

Can someone tell me what you actually expect trans people to do when they need the toilet out in public?

Got a GRC? Then generally you can use the facilities of the opposite sex.
Not got a GRC? Not actively proven to be working towards one? Use the toilets designated for your own biological sex.

JanMeyer

I don't have any mobility issues but I'm entitled to use these toilets. Are you the sort of person who will challenge why I'm using them because I don't look disabled?

Did i mention mobility issues? No, i fucking didn't, did i? I said anyone who's unable to access the "normal" facilities. That might mean someone in a wheelchair, or it might mean someone who's severely autistic and/or has a learning disability. Apparently that was obvious to anyone with a functioning brain

My what a charmer you are.

What you said was They're accessible for DISABLED PEOPLE, you know because they can't access the facilities you can*

I don't have any impediment which prevents my accessing the ordinary loos. I'm not in a wheelchair, I'm not autistic and despite your rude comment, do not have learning difficulties. It would appear from your response you may well be exactly the sort of person who will challenge the use of the accessible toilets.

Given the supposedly small amount of trans people compared to disabled people, one additional unisex should be more than adequate provision for anyone who feels uncomfortable using the toilet amongst those who are of the same sex as them

Can someone tell me what you actually expect trans people to do when they need the toilet out in public?

If you could explain what you mean by "trans" I could answer your question more easily.

'Trans' now includes people who present as their biological sex.

I think the answer is to have single sex and unisex facilities. (As provided in many leisure centres ASWELL as accessible facilities) I do not think the answer is to change legislation so that all facilities MUST be unisex.

@12frogsincoats

Can someone tell me what you actually expect trans people to do when they need the toilet out in public?

Trans rights are human rights, as we so often hear. Public toilets are for all humans and have been divided up based on biological needs, including providing urinals and extra space where those are needed. Why should trans people be treated differently?

And again- what a little charmer you are Jan . You're really selling the "gender critical" cause.

You really should have a squint at the government site I linked to. You really have quite the way with disablist language.

For those saying there are not enough disabled facilities then surely there would be more if there was more demand. So yes trans and non binary people, men not comfortable taking children in single sex loos, people with prams and buggies, older people who may need a bit more room. I think all those are justified reasons for using a disabled loo with the proviso that those with obvious mobility problems are given priority.

@KarenCaron

I don't think this is right. These are facilities for people with disabilities / health issues. An additional half a million people using these spaces because of gender feelings is not on. If they don't have a GRC, or at least can actively prove they are working towards one, then they need to use the designated space of their own sex, or campaign for another space, just like women and disabled people have done.

If people on this thread haven't already signed it they may be interested in a petition campaigning for 'third spaces' - by TW who use Male facilities but realise that not all do. If you look for Fionne on the petitions board you'll find it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/petitions_noticeboard

@NailsNeedDoing

I can’t see the problem with trans people using single occupancy accessible toilets. Unlike when they use female toilets, it has no effect on anyone else so I can’t see why anyone would object.

Being trans seems a fair reason to not use single sex spaces, so they are included in the group that accessible toilets are designed for.

Yeah it's fine, I'll just piss myself in my wheelchair because the queue is twice the length it would be usually. No affect on anyone who matters, just disabled women.

Yeah it's fine, I'll just piss myself in my wheelchair because the queue is twice the length it would be usually.

In reality, I doubt there are enough trans people around (or who wouldn't continue to invade women's spaces regardless) that the queue is unlikely to be twice the length. But that's besides the point - you shouldn't ever be having to wait for people who don't need your loo for its designed purpose, you physically need it.

This seems off key from FPFW - unless they are (not very clearly) trying to make the point that it is not on to give away rights that are not yours to offer.

On the other hand, if ALL toilets were made accessible - I know that this is not possible due to space and cost - it would improve provision for those who needed them. Are FPFW trying to argue that point perhaps? Get more accessible toilets in all settings to improve the situation for those who need them with the side effect of giving a third space for those who feel unable or are unwilling to use the correct facilities provided for their sex?

For those saying there are not enough disabled facilities then surely there would be more if there was more demand.

Sorry, you are wrong.

Accessible facilities cost money and offer no financial return. Builders will include the minimum legal requirement.

You also misunderstand the reason that facilities are provided. If an accessible toilet is empty for 5 days out of 7, but on 2 days it enables somebody to go to work or travel, then it is necessary. That is the point of equalities legislation.

but all accessible toilets should have baby changing facilities in them anyway

@Thingybob

For those saying there are not enough disabled facilities then surely there would be more if there was more demand. So yes trans and non binary people, men not comfortable taking children in single sex loos, people with prams and buggies, older people who may need a bit more room. I think all those are justified reasons for using a disabled loo with the proviso that those with obvious mobility problems are given priority.

If demand was the main factor in how many toilets there were, there’d be ten times the amount of ladies so we’d never have to queue!

but all accessible toilets should have baby changing facilities in them anyway

Why?

The need to change a nappy isn't the same as the need to use a toilet, and if it's assumed that parents of small children should automatically be able to use accessible toilets, the number of available toilets is greatly reduced.