Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

I think the problem is that realistically, even if trans people did campaign for third spaces it would likely take decades, just as the campaign for accessible toilets did.

There are other alternatives e.g. men's toilets become unisex.

@merrymouse

I think the problem is that realistically, even if trans people did campaign for third spaces it would likely take decades, just as the campaign for accessible toilets did.

There are other alternatives e.g. men's toilets become unisex.

Men's toilets often only have one or two stalls, so this wouldn't really be practical and they would likely just end up the de facto mens, so if trans women were to use them they would be at just as much risk.

The status quo is that people use the facilities in line with their sex, since self ID is not the law in the UK.

@Thelnebriati

The status quo is that people use the facilities in line with their sex, since self ID is not the law in the UK.

It's not though is it, you might like it to be, but the reality is that trans people have been using toilets inline with their aquired gender for decades. I don't see how this debate is helped by pretending otherwise.

Men's toilets often only have one or two stalls, so this wouldn't really be practical and they would likely just end up the de facto mens, so if trans women were to use them they would be at just as much risk.

New buildings are being built all the time, many organisations are converting existing toilets into unisex toilets. If people who need accessible toilets had this attitude nothing would have changed.

Your suggestion of sticking with the status quo also doesn't work, because the status quo is that toilets are gradually becoming unisex, regardless of suitability.

@SpartacusAutisticus

"The only choices I can see is to maintain the status quo, which is that trans people continue to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, or introduce some kind of bathroom bill with all the potential attendant risk and problems for gender non-conforming people this would likely bring."

Or just use the toilet accorded by your sex.

Legal sex, identified sex or birth sex? If either the latter or the first that would require some kind of bathroom bill.

Still, the way project Tory is panning out, in 5 years time, the disabled won't be able to leave their houses (even if they are accessible) so the few accessible toilets remaining can be repurposed for whoever.

I think even disabled people using accessible facilities have no objection to parents attending to the needs of their children in those same spaces. As far as I am concerned, that should be the limit of such a space.

It is males who are using the communal spaces designated for females without their consent who are causing the problem here. Such males are riding roughshod over the human dignity, privacy and wellbeing of females.

This is an extremely Clear break down as to how UK law stands on single sex spaces

twitter.com/rebeccamkbull/status/1312163878059474945?s=21

It's not though is it, you might like it to be, but the reality is that trans people have been using toilets inline with their aquired gender for decades.

This is where its important to define trans.

Are you talking about the few thousand people who it was expected would acquire a GRC, or the many more people who now identify as trans?

Like it or not, the ability to 'gate keep' is essential to maintaining sex based rights (and also ensure availability of accessible toilets). Who are you excluding?

@SpartacusAutisticus

"Men's toilets often only have one or two stalls, so this wouldn't really be practical and they would likely just end up the de facto mens, so if trans women were to use them they would be at just as much risk."

What risk? Where is the evidence of this risk?

And why is it women's problem to solve?

I think it's really pretty obvious that a young trans woman who passes as a woman would be just as much at risk in a men's toilet as a non trans woman. Why on earth wouldn't she?

And why is it women's problem to solve?

I think this tough shit if you get raped it's not our problem attitude really reveals a deep sense of callousness within some GC circles.

@BalhamWoman

I don't think FPFW are correct.

FPFW are indeed correct that third spaces that are mixed sex are a solution for use by men who claim they are women and for those who claim they are non-binary. This will leave accessible facilities for those who are disabled and those who need additional space and privacy to mange the heeds of their children.

Perhaps we should all be advocating for separate spaces for those with issues about their "gender" compared with those who have no issues with their born sex?

I have no idea why you posted that. My post was about the content of the tweet in the link;

*''A policy that excludes all males may be indirect discrimination on the grounds of gender reassignment. This is because it may be argued that such a policy disproportionately impacts males who share the protected characteristic of gender reassignment compared to males who don’t''(

Permitted exceptions are not discriminatory. They are created for a group that shares a protected characteristic.

Most posters on FWR are happy to support third mixed sex spaces, or making the men's room mixed sex if you can get men to agree to that.

which is that trans people continue to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, or introduce some kind of bathroom bill with all the potential attendant risk and problems for gender non-conforming people this would likely bring.

Or alternatively men could stop breaking the law and ignoring the feelings of women by illegally imposing themselves on female single sex spaces. Toilets have never been separated by gender.

Do you take the same approach to other incidents of law breaking? Why bother with breathalysers? Why not follow the status quo and allow drink driving regardless of risk or the law? What do other people who might get hurt matter anyway?

Ah ye olde “trans women have been using women’s toilets for feet without problems”

In the past if I have ever seen a TW in the toilet it’s always brought me up instantly short for a few moments because in the real world without Instagram filters & posing & air brushes they don’t pass. I’m aware they’re male & it puts me on alert, I’m on edge because it’s a male bodied person

Now I’m sure from the TW POV the fact I haven’t told them to fuck off to the men’s or similar means they’ve used the loo without a doubles but what they mean is without a problem FOR THEM. I’ve got a problem with it but I’m a woman who is 1. Aware men are bigger & stronger than me 2 socialised to be kind

So no they have been problems but they’ve all been problems women are expected to suck up

Also I don’t know why I’m bothering as I’m sure you know this

Feet = years ffs!!!

It's not though is it, you might like it to be, but the reality is that trans people have been using toilets inline with their acquired gender for decades.

Without the consent of women and causing much fear in women and girls when knowing that a man is in their private space. So terrorised are girls and women with such men's behaviour that they are terrified to say anything for fear of their own safety.

Such is the depth and breadth of male entitlement to violate women and girls.

Yep Balham the way certain posters really don’t gaf about women’s consent is breathtaking

@Aesopfable

which is that trans people continue to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, or introduce some kind of bathroom bill with all the potential attendant risk and problems for gender non-conforming people this would likely bring.

Or alternatively men could stop breaking the law and ignoring the feelings of women by illegally imposing themselves on female single sex spaces. Toilets have never been separated by gender.

Do you take the same approach to other incidents of law breaking? Why bother with breathalysers? Why not follow the status quo and allow drink driving regardless of risk or the law? What do other people who might get hurt matter anyway?

There are no criminal laws on toilet usage, and even the civil provisions in the EA would apply to the toilet provider not the toilet user. So even if your reading of the law were correct then trans people using toilets inline with their gender are not, and have never been breaking the law.

And most legal opinion seems to hold that trans people have the right to use toilets inline with their gender, as the Women's Minister confirmed last week in the Lords, and this has been backed by the courts. Perhaps the GEO, EHRC, the Government, the Law Society, the lower courts and numerous legal scholars are all wrong and the courts will eventually find otherwise but I wouldn't be too confident about that.

@SpartacusAutisticus

"I think it's really pretty obvious that a young trans woman who passes as a woman would be just as much at risk in a men's toilet as a non trans woman. Why on earth wouldn't she?"

Unfortunately, I cannot respond to this question as I would be unable to do so without breaking Mumsnet's rules for moderating discussion on sex/gender.

"I think this tough shit if you get raped it's not our problem attitude really reveals a deep sense of callousness within some GC circles."

What was it Margaret Attwood said, wasn't it something like: 'men are afraid men will laugh at them and women are afraid men will kill them'?

And, again, I can't fully respond to your point without breaking Mumsnet mod rules. I could if I were prepared to adjust my language and be dishonest, but I'm not prepared to do that.

🤷🏻‍♀️

It has nothing to do with being laughed at. You really think someone who looks like Monroe Bergdorf or Paris Lees would be safe late at night in a dodgy nightclub toilet with a drunk rapey bloke? You are astonishingly naive if so.

For the record, the Equality Act 2010 deals with toilets and changing rooms and other sex=specific accommodation [communal spaces used by two or more people at any time] very adequately, with regard to men's violation of such spaces.

See:

(6)The condition is that—

(a)the service is provided for, or is likely to be used by, two or more persons at the same time, and

(b)the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

Section 27 of Schedule 3.

This has been referred to here on MN countless times over the past several years. It specifically covers private facilities for the female born sex in all circumstances.

There are no criminal laws on toilet usage, and even the civil provisions in the EA would apply to the toilet provider not the toilet user. So even if your reading of the law were correct then trans people using toilets inline with their gender are not, and have never been breaking the law.

I'm not breaking the law if I use the men's changing room at the gym. However, the point is that the gym owner also isn't breaking the law if they ask me to leave.