Accessible Toilets

[WarOnWomen]

I've just seen this thread by Fair Play for Women regarding their stance on toilets. Maya F is also on the thread clarifying the issue.

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312062467191734273?s=21

They are saying that everyone should be comfortable choosing the toilets they want to without being forced to share with opposite sex. Yup. Trans people should also not have to share with people designated at birth. Yup, also agree. Have a mix sex category for people who don't mind and trans people. Sure.

They are saying these facilities already exist. Accessible toilets. This is where I feel lost and let down. These toilets are for disabled people. People worked hard to get these accessible toilets. I don't want my mum having to share these toilets with trans women, anymore than I want them in female spaces. It's just wrong. And don't disabled people have a say as part of the EA2010?

Please tell me I have the wrong end of the stick.

Fair Play for Women have got this badly wrong and I hope they're retract.

I don't have any mobility issues but I'm entitled to use these toilets. Are you the sort of person who will challenge why I'm using them because I don't look disabled?

That’s not what this is about. It’s about people without any disability/ health problem using the disabled toilets. Unfortunately, the more men use women’s toilets, the more women will — reluctantly — use the disabled toilet for privacy and safety.

My point is that neither Maya nor Nic nor any women's group has a right to give away the rights

I can't see how they are giving away a right. People with a disability have a right to accessible toilets but there is no right to keep anyone else out.

@Antibles

Completely agree with you OP.

I am outraged that somebody would try to give away the facilities of people who literally physically CANNOT access the standard public faciltities.

I disagree about third spaces for trans people anyway. There are toilets for male people and for female people. That covers everybody. Anybody who can't cope within that provision needs to either seek mental health help or campaign e.g. for men to be more accepting of other males who present differently.

It is not the job of women or people with disabilities to accommodate them.

This in a nutshell. It's a mental health problem, and neither women not the disabled are there to validate the identity issues of complete strangers. I'm not interested in "being kind" by moving aside for men.

This is their latest tweet

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312415300902678529?s=21

Thingybob, you're either disabled in which case you're entitled to use the disabled loos, or you're not, in which case you don't use them. If you decide to identify as disabled so that you can used the disabled loo then you are behaving just like men who identify as female and use the women's loos. Many of us here are fighting to keep men out of women's loos. It's supremely hypocritical to then say that disabled people can't keep anyone else out. And wrong, of course. A lot of disabled loos are accessible by special key only, to keep able-bodied people out of them.

@Shedbuilder

Thingybob, you're either disabled in which case you're entitled to use the disabled loos, or you're not, in which case you don't use them. If you decide to identify as disabled so that you can used the disabled loo then you are behaving just like men who identify as female and use the women's loos. Many of us here are fighting to keep men out of women's loos. It's supremely hypocritical to then say that disabled people can't keep anyone else out. And wrong, of course. A lot of disabled loos are accessible by special key only, to keep able-bodied people out of them.

That's not true. They're usually key only access to stop drug users going in and passing out in them... Seriously!

It's a mental health problem,

Yes for some it is and the equality act makes it clear mental health can count as a disability (if meet criteria). The problem, once again, is the breadth of the umbrella definition of trans. Let us not also forget that many may also have other reasons for needing to use the disabled either due to surgery or comorbidities.

The people who should definitely not be using the accessible toilet wouldn't want to use them anyone - they want tobe in the women's.

Totally agree that disabled toilets need to be there for people with physical needs that require extra space, grips, seat height, changing facilities, hoists and turning space for wheelchairs. Both my parents ended up being wheelchair users and having to calculate where toilets were was just another difficulty to navigate. I won’t ever apologise to the able bodied women I swore at who just ‘nipped’ into the disabled loo at the theatre to avoid interval queues on my DMs last ever trip to the panto with her grandchildren. My heavily pregnant sister and I got my mum in just in time both for the interval ended and before she had an -accident that would have ended the trip. Anyone suggesting changing how accessible loos should be used should spend a day with a dummy wheelchair like those baby dolls that used to be given to teens to make them think about getting pregnant early.
The real issue is to tackle architects and designers - they love balance ie two sets of equally sized toilet blocks. FPFW talk to disability groups before coming up with some airy solution

Anyone can get hold of a key though

@merrymouse

If someone is unable to use the regular toilets due to a disability, where do you expect them to change their baby? Or should they just go home?

As per my previous post, some people who need accessible toilets need baby changing facilities. That does not mean that everyone who needs to change a baby should have access to those facilities.

Since you are reading the thread, could you answer my question about what you mean by 'trans'?

I suspect you know exactly what trans means, otherwise you wouldn't be on this thread, would you?

Oh, that Guardian article about the women having surgery to fit a catheter just so they can live their lives!
Talk about 'I just want to pee'...

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I don't have any mobility issues but I'm entitled to use these toilets. Are you the sort of person who will challenge why I'm using them because I don't look disabled?

That’s not what this is about. It’s about people without any disability/ health problem using the disabled toilets. Unfortunately, the more men use women’s toilets, the more women will — reluctantly — use the disabled toilet for privacy and safety.

You are quoting me out of context. I was responding to a poster who stated the accessible toilets are for DISABLED PEOPLE, you know because they can't access the facilities you can

I can easily access ordinary toilets but my impairment entitles me to use the accessible toilet if I want to.

@Juniperandrage

Anyone can get hold of a key though

That's correct. I don't have one but they can be ordered online. There's no requirement to prove a health issue.

In the past, women who had children in buggies could, quite safely, use the women's toilets, leave the door open and have the buggy in with them through the doorway. Women understood and respected their need for privacy. These days, with men using women's loos, this is no longer possible. The only alternative for such women is to use an accessible toilet that affords them the privacy required. Baby changing facilities now are, in many instances, included in accessible facilities, to enable a parent of either sex to attend to the needs of their baby. Such expansion of the use of accessible facilities ensures that the investment in providing such is not limited to exclude those for whom the additional space and facilities have value.

The root of the problem here is men using women's facilities to which women have never consented. In addition, the expansion of the meaning of accessible toilets accommodates fathers who need to attend to their baby's needs.

At my university, instead of the space that would have been taken up by two separate sets of toilets, there were instead 6 mixed toilets, which each included a toilet, a sink and a hand dryer.

These were in one building only, and I always headed for them when I needed to loo.

It will take a LONG time to replace all toilets with ones like those, but I honestly do think they're the future.

Cheap fake keys have been known to break in locks rendering the accessible toilet inaccessible.

you can buy completely legitimate RADAR keys on Amazon. That's where I got mine

@WarOnWomen

This is their latest tweet

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1312415300902678529?s=21

I don't think FPFW are correct. Single sex facilities are an exception, allowed so that a disadvantaged group can participate in society, and an exception cannot be classed as discriminatory. For example, men cannot sue their employer because they are denied access to the breastfeeding room and are also denied a similar room.

Official keys cost £2- 3 , £5 at most depending on the website. There's no check on whether there is a need for one.

I suspect you know exactly what trans means, otherwise you wouldn't be on this thread, would you?

Thank you for your reply, but I asked what you understood trans to mean.

You have not answered my question.

It's obvious that you didn't read my post because you do not have to 'suspect' anything - I explained what I understand trans to mean (according to current policy adopted by Stonewall) - anyone who claims to be trans, including people who present as their birth sex.

I am assuming that you think trans means something different, and can therefore make an argument for why people shouldn't use the facilities provided according to biological sex.

Some people on Mumsnet argue that 'old school transexuals' should be included in single sex spaces, but that still means excluding some people who identify as trans. What do you think? Where do you draw the line and on what basis?

Personally, I am happy to use unisex spaces most of the time, because I rarely need to use facilities where I wouldn't feel safe. However I can understand both why some women choose not to do this, and why spaces that are segregated according to sex are difficult for trans people.

Can you understand why some women can't use unisex spaces?

Personally, I am happy to use unisex spaces most of the time, because I rarely need to use facilities where I wouldn't feel safe

Sorry, that was a bit confusing. I am talking about unisex toilets.

I almost never use spaces that aren't unisex, even toilets. (Live in the countryside, work for a small business, rarely enter the kind of building that has cubicle toilets).

I don't think FPFW are correct.

FPFW are indeed correct that third spaces that are mixed sex are a solution for use by men who claim they are women and for those who claim they are non-binary. This will leave accessible facilities for those who are disabled and those who need additional space and privacy to mange the heeds of their children.

Perhaps we should all be advocating for separate spaces for those with issues about their "gender" compared with those who have no issues with their born sex?

The great thing about the disabled is they find it much much harder to fight back. It's why they are first in line for anything shitty.

Aided and abetted by the average persons knowledge of their issues which isn't much above zero.

Even on this forum, in these threads, when I've drawn attention to accessibility issues it's a siren voice that gets skipped over immediately.

Still, the way project Tory is panning out, in 5 years time, the disabled won't be able to leave their houses (even if they are accessible) so the few accessible toilets remaining can be repurposed for whoever.

This is a long standing position of Maya F, I saw her discussing it months ago.

I think the problem is that realistically, even if trans people did campaign for third spaces it would likely take decades, just as the campaign for accessible toilets did. Most businesses would be against it for a start due to the huge cost involved, the public generally don't seem that bothered about it and it doesn't seem like a priority of any of the main parties. And even if it was won it would still take a long time to be implemented, companies were given over a decade to become compliant with the Disability Discrimination Act.

So I think Maya's position is trying to come up with a policy that is likely to be implemented in our lifetimes. Unfortunately it would be hugely unpopular as we have seen. The only choices I can see is to maintain the status quo, which is that trans people continue to use spaces inline with their aquired gender, or introduce some kind of bathroom bill with all the potential attendant risk and problems for gender non-conforming people this would likely bring.