Do “trans kids” exist?

[Siameasy]

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

In fairness, I think dysphoria is very common among women, it's just that most manage to find a way to navigate the requirements and cope with life.

I am strongly of the opinion that nobody is entirely pleased with what/who/how they are (or the shape of their nose or the colour of their hair or needing glasses or their feet not being suited for fast running or or or) but it is generally not something which makes life intolerable for them. If it does, it seems to me that for a lot of people the answer is not necessarily rhinoplasty though it may be hair dye or laser treatment or not trying to become a sprinter it is learning how to deal with one's limitations and working within them.

There are quite specific reasons for being unable to do this, and I am very sorry indeed that you suffered one of them. And I salute you for having been so strong.

FireUnderTheHand
I am going to leave it here to see if my explanation was helpful

You posted while I was writing my reply to TyroBurningDownTheCloset -- and now I am crying for the wrong that was done you.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

FireUnderTheHand I am going to leave it here to see if my explanation was helpful

You posted while I was writing my reply to TyroBurningDownTheCloset -- and now I am crying for the wrong that was done you.

That is so very compassionate. Thank you for the love.

Bloody hell, Fire, you've done an amazing job at figuring out this emotion stuff! I take my hat off to you.

You're way further on than me; up until last year my mental state was progressively getting worse because I couldn't even recognise emotions, I'm that closed off from them. It was a bit of a revelation when I realised they call them feelings because you're supposed to actually feel them, in your body, and that hearts soaring and whatnot weren't just metaphors.

So, not quite the same - I shoved all the feelings into the same box and tried to avoid ever opening it. For which I blame my dad, who believed my trauma responses were wilful misbehaviour, and punished me for them repeatedly. I was terrified of his rage, and to this day one of the fastest ways to get my mind battening down the metaphorical hatches and disengaging from my body is to put an angry male in front of me.

I worry for 'trans kids' that they are employing mechanisms they don't understand and adults are putting them on a path of destruction without exploring deeper issues.

Me too. Far too many kids who've experienced trauma get no help with it at all; that those who do come to the attention of professionals are given no real help to even acknowledge the root of their difficulties, let alone to come to terms with it, horrifies me.

It has to come down to a feeling, a belief, however that is most likely be due to nurture rather then some innate feeling. Quite often though when I do hear about someone identifying as trans I do a mental tick list - ASD, trauma, gay / lesbian etc - it is rare for there to not be at least one of these situations occurring - it seems too interlinked to just go straight down an absolute confirmation route.

I think as well that some parents go very far down the line of trying to reject* gender that they actually end up cementing it, so little Jack who has always worn dresses and sparkly trainers because 'that is what he chose in the shop' gets to school, gets told that those things are for girls and therefore Jack thinks he is in actual fact a girl. They are perhaps just the opposite of the 'you don't want that toy it's for a girl' .

*By reject I mean, 'look at me, how great am I?' They often come across as quite aggressive about it all as well.

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

Bloody hell, Fire, you've done an amazing job at figuring out this emotion stuff! I take my hat off to you.

You're way further on than me; up until last year my mental state was progressively getting worse because I couldn't even recognise emotions, I'm that closed off from them. It was a bit of a revelation when I realised they call them feelings because you're supposed to actually feel them, in your body, and that hearts soaring and whatnot weren't just metaphors.

So, not quite the same - I shoved all the feelings into the same box and tried to avoid ever opening it. For which I blame my dad, who believed my trauma responses were wilful misbehaviour, and punished me for them repeatedly. I was terrified of his rage, and to this day one of the fastest ways to get my mind battening down the metaphorical hatches and disengaging from my body is to put an angry male in front of me.

I worry for 'trans kids' that they are employing mechanisms they don't understand and adults are putting them on a path of destruction without exploring deeper issues.

Me too. Far too many kids who've experienced trauma get no help with it at all; that those who do come to the attention of professionals are given no real help to even acknowledge the root of their difficulties, let alone to come to terms with it, horrifies me.

Thanks Tyro, that means a lot.

I think my deep love of philosophy and early rejection of religion played a huge part. Believing god is dead or never existed (starting at about 7yrs old) allowed me to let go of those attachments, those barriers to truth and healing, and that feeling of being 'under HIS eye'. But it took until my 20s to dig in (I am now 43). Being an atheist is awesomely cathartic for many reasons for me - it is all about this life and the love and joy I can bring to others as well as myself. There is great peace in having no concern of afterlife or eternal soul as I am very comfortable just being part of this enormous mass and energy that is existence. In truth I was never looking for god/gods/goddesses/etc, it wasn't an entity(-ies) that alluded but our most coveted and most needed emotion - love.

Now I can say honestly that I choose happiness and I make it myself. I'm not Insta happy or FB happy but actually really happy and thankful for my life lessons. It took so much work, so much pain... and every time I see my mom I struggle leading up to it and afterwards (she wants to talk about my CSA or other traumatic events every time I see her, it comes from a good place but she can't get it she doesn't have the tools). So I am not as guarded but also am better about not allowing myself to be forced into vulnerability (I fuck it up often but I really try). We are moldable forever but whether we can employ the tools to avoid being shoved into molds is about 50/50 chance because subliminal messages and societal influence run deep in social cultures (even with non-human animals).

You are not alone. There are millions of us spread around the globe. I'm honored to be here for you when/if you want/need it.

@TheGreatWave

It has to come down to a feeling, a belief, however that is most likely be due to nurture rather then some innate feeling. Quite often though when I do hear about someone identifying as trans I do a mental tick list - ASD, trauma, gay / lesbian etc - it is rare for there to not be at least one of these situations occurring - it seems too interlinked to just go straight down an absolute confirmation route.

I think as well that some parents go very far down the line of trying to reject* gender that they actually end up cementing it, so little Jack who has always worn dresses and sparkly trainers because 'that is what he chose in the shop' gets to school, gets told that those things are for girls and therefore Jack thinks he is in actual fact a girl. They are perhaps just the opposite of the 'you don't want that toy it's for a girl' .

*By reject I mean, 'look at me, how great am I?' They often come across as quite aggressive about it all as well.

Absolutely agree with your breakdown.

whether we can employ the tools to avoid being shoved into molds

That right there is where the explosion in young female transitioners, and ridiculous demi-hemi-semi-sexual orientations, and the adoption of non-binary, that's where it comes from.

The label itself is a tool, which is meant to signal to others: "I don't feel like a dick-receptacle; please stop trying to mould me to become one."

I suspect the reason I've always shied away from labelling my sexual orientation is the mountain of evidence that none of the traditional orientation labels are truly effective in this regard.

It's growing up female under patriarchy that fucks us all over, because we all have to be moulded to fit well enough in the society we've got. You and I just got a particularly sharp and shitty end of the conditioning stick, so sharp we couldn't ignore it any more. I'll see your and raise you a

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

whether we can employ the tools to avoid being shoved into molds

That right there is where the explosion in young female transitioners, and ridiculous demi-hemi-semi-sexual orientations, and the adoption of non-binary, that's where it comes from.

The label itself is a tool, which is meant to signal to others: "I don't feel like a dick-receptacle; please stop trying to mould me to become one."

I suspect the reason I've always shied away from labelling my sexual orientation is the mountain of evidence that none of the traditional orientation labels are truly effective in this regard.

It's growing up female under patriarchy that fucks us all over, because we all have to be moulded to fit well enough in the society we've got. You and I just got a particularly sharp and shitty end of the conditioning stick, so sharp we couldn't ignore it any more. I'll see your and raise you a

Again, I completely agree with you.

I'll take your and raise you a (b/c there is no special icon for my beloved tequila)

@TheGreatWave

It has to come down to a feeling, a belief, however that is most likely be due to nurture rather then some innate feeling. Quite often though when I do hear about someone identifying as trans I do a mental tick list - ASD, trauma, gay / lesbian etc - it is rare for there to not be at least one of these situations occurring - it seems too interlinked to just go straight down an absolute confirmation route.

I think as well that some parents go very far down the line of trying to reject* gender that they actually end up cementing it, so little Jack who has always worn dresses and sparkly trainers because 'that is what he chose in the shop' gets to school, gets told that those things are for girls and therefore Jack thinks he is in actual fact a girl. They are perhaps just the opposite of the 'you don't want that toy it's for a girl' .

*By reject I mean, 'look at me, how great am I?' They often come across as quite aggressive about it all as well.

I have seen a real correlation between parents who are very aggressive about rejecting gender and kids that seem to end up with gender issues, I would say it's equal, at least, to parents who are very rigid about accepting gender roles.

Mermaids were asked directly this question on Twitter. Circular logic....when asked more Qs they didn’t answer.

There is no answer. There is no “trans child”. Their existence depends on there being such a thing as a “trans child” because actual distress at ones sex is rare and any confusion about “gender” is caused by the existence of gender itself and not the sex of the child.

Ok. So a child says something and the parent/adult has to agree? Some parenting there!

I know. That’s their definition. This leading
—lobby group— charity getting lots of money and the ear of everyone and that’s their answer!

And someone on there made a good point - how do non verbal kids tell you? Mermaids didn’t answer
What about cultures where there’s no concept of trans? How do those kids know?

They can't "know" unless they're exposed to the idea.

For a kid to identify as trans, someone has to have told them what that means. Culture and society will do this even if the parents don't. Ditto with identifying as a girl or a boy.

I can understand why the parents at Mermaids are digging in, though. The psychological defence mechanisms are largely unconscious and very powerful.

“They would tell you”

Are there the same unbelievably precocious children who say at the age of 2, with mature language the defies normal development, “Mummy I should have been born a girl and I wish I had a vagina”?

My son was about 4/5 and asked me if he could have a baby in his tummy when he grew up. So I told him that only women can have babies and he would grow up to be a man and so wouldn’t be able to. He looked a bit sad for a few minutes then never mentioned it again. I do try and be truthful with him so would not have got into letting him think he might be able to be a girl. I think it’s kinder not to set a child up to have false expectations, with the inevitable disappointment just postponed until later, when it’s more entrenched and quite possibly more upsetting.

I know someone will now say ‘ah but he wasn’t persistent!’ but if he had been I would have continued to tell him the truth and he would have got it eventually

Anyone else noticed how the parents who reject gender roles and are apparently letting their children choose their own path only ever allow their boys to have the pink sparkly stuff and not their girls.

My sister in law who annoys me anyway let her 3 year old son choose a pink bike while his big sister is never allowed anything pink or girly. She’s got a green bike that she didn’t choose and is furious about it.

Not many actually go full neutral though do they? Or a mix of girl/boy/neutral (whatever that actually means).

I remember someone knitted DS a beautiful green jumper when he was a baby and someone commented that it was a boys colour - I flippin’ live in green! No, she said, boys colour but ‘neutral’ was white for a baby (yeah - because white doesn’t show the vomit/poo stains at all?).

Humans invented gender-we know that because animals don’t have it.
Most of us do absorb it and are conditioned to “choose” gendered things but as an adult I can explain that there’s no real reason why a boy can’t wear a dress other than “the rules” or why I feel obliged to shave my pits (conditioning, sexism)

Why aren’t Mermaids et al challenging the idea of gender?

@MustWe

Anyone else noticed how the parents who reject gender roles and are apparently letting their children choose their own path only ever allow their boys to have the pink sparkly stuff and not their girls.

My sister in law who annoys me anyway let her 3 year old son choose a pink bike while his big sister is never allowed anything pink or girly. She’s got a green bike that she didn’t choose and is furious about it.

Absolutely. Pink is absolute anathema unless it is on a boy, and then the sparklier the better.

DS likes pink. His school colour is pink. How very odd...

apparently in America years ago, pink was associated with boys and blue with girls (and I'm sure I've heard the same about India) - what happens when visiting those countries? Colour/sex association is rather bizarre and seemingly arbitrary - my kids have had pink, purple, green and black phases between them (DS + DDs) and DD1 wore her brothers cast off clothes for quite a while with no issues or confusion (I didn't see the point in getting rid of good quality clothes) - this was only a few years ago - how did we become so limited?

Also Holland wasn’t it? And in great grandparents say little boys could have worn dresses...