Do “trans kids” exist?

[Siameasy]

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

Which biological differences do you mean, Thingybob? Because most of us here in FWR are very keen on acknowledging biological difference.

The (average) differences in many traits that have been repeatedly observed between the sexes. It doesn't mean every male is more 'masculine' than every female but that outliers have a hard time fitting in. Yes I have read Gina Rippon but prefer Debra Soh, Steven Pinker and Simon Baron Cohen. Sorry if that makes me less of a feminist but that is what I believe to be true.

To be honest, I have not read any of those authors.

I do believe that there are some studies on personality traits where women on average score higher on agreeableness and conscientiousness. I also believe that agreeableness is negatively correlated to salary progression (but I may have that wrong). I am sure sure if any of the studies have managed to adjust for female socialisation- or indeed how that even would be possible.

I don’t really subscribe to “gender identities”. I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

@Thingybob

The (average) differences in many traits that have been repeatedly observed between the sexes. It doesn't mean every male is more 'masculine' than every female but that outliers have a hard time fitting in. Yes I have read Gina Rippon but prefer Debra Soh, Steven Pinker and Simon Baron Cohen. Sorry if that makes me less of a feminist but that is what I believe to be true.

Are you talking about biological differences or personality? It's not clear. You said biological differences.

I don't subscribe to "gender identities". I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

I 100% agree, we get to the same conclusion albeit from different angles.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

Oh, and CopsCantCatchCriminals Vegan cats exist. Don't they?

I don't think they would be very healthy if they were truly vegan, because cats are obligate carnivores.

I Knew it!

Yep. You've convinced me!

I have suspected for years that when someone says - my cat is vegan - the cat wasn't the one that made that choice.

Thank you.

I'm v. drunk.

@CopsCantCatchCriminals

I'm v. drunk.

Same 😂

I need to work on that.

(those are for sharing)

Are you talking about biological differences or personality? It's not clear. You said biological differences.

She's suggesting that there is some biological basis to overall personality differences between the sexes. Which as I understand it is considered the most moderate/common sort of view in the relevant sciences, Gina Rippon notwithstanding.

For all that people here like to say they want to follow the biology, I can't help but feel the preference for Rippon is mainly because she seems to support the right ideology rather than because her position is clearly stronger.

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime

(those are for sharing)

Thanks 🥂

Goose, I actually think it is extremely hard to have a nuanced nurture/nature discussion on FWR precisely because of the monitoring, screenshotting and trollery, tbh.

Some of us may well be interested to delve into the difference between the blank slate hypothesis and other perspectives, and I'm not quite sure where I sit among the options, but there's no way on God's green earth that I think FWR is going to be a useful place to hash it out without a whole host of PBPs and other trolls derailing the whole thing with pathetic gotcha attempts.

"it can be taken as a sign"

Not read the whole thread but these words just stand out. Taken as a sign. It's mythology.

This is good

[]thecritic.co.uk/the-sexist-pseudoscience-of-gender-identity/]]

Transgenderism only exists if one believes that there are appropriate characteristics for each sex she says

Why is it that lobby groups are NOT saying, “hang on, gender as a concept is really harmful. Let’s support kids and help them work through it whilst helping them to be happy as the sex they are”?

Mermaids et all NEED gender to keep existing. Otherwise they are over.

Try again

<a class="break-all" href="https://thecritic.co.uk/the-sexist-pseudoscience-of-gender-identity/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">thecritic.co.uk/the-sexist-pseudoscience-of-gender-identity/</a>

@Goosefoot

Are you talking about biological differences or personality? It's not clear. You said biological differences.

She's suggesting that there is some biological basis to overall personality differences between the sexes. Which as I understand it is considered the most moderate/common sort of view in the relevant sciences, Gina Rippon notwithstanding.

For all that people here like to say they want to follow the biology, I can't help but feel the preference for Rippon is mainly because she seems to support the right ideology rather than because her position is clearly stronger.

Thank you Goosefoot. I didn't mean to de rail the thread with a nature/nurture debate but just to highlight that I can understand what is meant by an 'innate essence' that the trans lobby define as gender identity. I see it as a natural, non-typical variation in personality type and have seen such kids grow up quite happily in their own biological bodies. Good luck to those posters who are currently parenting gender non conforming kids.

@FloralBunting

Goose, I actually think it is extremely hard to have a nuanced nurture/nature discussion on FWR precisely because of the monitoring, screenshotting and trollery, tbh.

Some of us may well be interested to delve into the difference between the blank slate hypothesis and other perspectives, and I'm not quite sure where I sit among the options, but there's no way on God's green earth that I think FWR is going to be a useful place to hash it out without a whole host of PBPs and other trolls derailing the whole thing with pathetic gotcha attempts.

You're probably right.

I get a little antsy though about the presentation of Rippon as if she is the last/only/dominant viewpoint scientifically on this subject, or for that matter that there is only one reasonable feminist viewpoint. It's not factual.

I don’t really subscribe to “gender identities”. I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

That’s fine until you meet someone who is more comfortable with a body more the opposite sex to what they were born with. Then you realise it’s not just about preferences and personalities.

there's an 80% chance he'll come out the other side of puberty understanding that he's a boy.

Yes. What do you want to do with the other 20%?

@DaisiesandButtercups

No.

Adults did not tell their children the truth and help them accept what cannot be changed. Adults imposed sexist stereotypes on their children. Adults wish they had a daughter rather than a son or vice versa. Adults obsessively seek attention or have Munchausen’s by proxy. Adults want children to be labelled and medicated to justify their own political agenda.

^This (and contributing peer influence)

I basically adopt Ray Blachard's views on this one.

Biological sex exists. Some people are gender nonconforming, to a greater or lesser extent. Most gender nonconforming people are able to live comfortably as their own biological sex and that should be our basic approach when we see kids who are gender conforming.

However, there is a small % of people who, due to be very gender non conforming, may feel not unreasonably that their life will be better and happier if they "live as" a member of the opposite sex. No, they have not actually changed sex. But it is compassionate to treat them as such.

Traditionally, this group consisted largely of biologically male gay men who are very feminine presenting in their looks or mannerisms or both. Gay men like this find dating very hard, because other gay men are generally not very attracted to them. In their teens, these boys sometimes experiment with wearing women's clothes and discover that they find things easier and (perhaps for the first time) actually get to enjoy flattering male attention from straight guys who find them attractive. Some of these boys have traditionally made the decision at some point in their teens to live as a woman; I wish them luck and am glad that there are medical services that are there to help them out. (And I don't find these people a threat to me, unlike the autogynephiles; they are not attracted to women and usually go out of their way to draw no attention to themselves because they "pass" and want to go on passing)

However, this is likely to be a very small number of people.

And the late teens are the earliest time to start making decisions about this. Gender non conforming children should simply be encouraged to present however they want, and then people around them should wait and see. The great majority just end up being perfectly happy and healthy gay people.

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance.

Translation: all your focus should be on championing a really fucked up patriarchy-approved coping method; you shouldn't explore alternatives that involve reconciling with the site of your trauma.

I was bloody lucky. I found the second-wavers before I was exposed to the idea that girls can be trans too. Every CSA survivor should have that chance.

I had the space to hate myself for a long time, hating my female body knowing that it was the cause of my suffering. My sin of being born was beyond me and I was to be a receptacle. I didn't want to be a receptacle so it seemed clear that my only escape (by 13ish yrs old) was to be asexual and divorce myself from every trapping of my female body possible. I couldn't escape the endometriosis that presented shortly after my first period and in the 80s-90s androgyny was highly accepted if not expected. As a result of the fluidity of the 80s-90s and the knowledge that with my menses came otherworldly pain I managed to emerge without mutilating and/or pumping my body full of harmful unnatural hormones. And I healed eventually - as much as you can when a survivor of CSA without any support.

Through great effort I taught myself to love my body and myself.

Surviving traumas that literally destroy your entire worldview (including perception of self) can't be healed by ignoring the issue and mutilating the body.

@TyroBurningDownTheCloset

I've a lot more to say about the dissociation aspect but I'm not sure the general FWR consensus is quite ready for some of it.

Suffice to say, on a psychosexual level, it fucks you right over.

One major problem is: How do you work out your sexuality when you don't want to have sex with your own genitals because doing so is triggering?

Yes, all of this.

Would love to dig in with you but I suspect that the dissociation discussion may be too much.

However, I will say that...

The resulting compartmentalization skillset gained through severe trauma built an almost superhuman chaos mitigation and management function into my psyche. It happens automatically in crisis situations but after years of dissecting it I can employ it at will when I need to get through a situation that would otherwise be unbearable (physically or psychologically). Did you have a similar outcome in regards to compartmentalization?