Do “trans kids” exist?

[Siameasy]

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

So this leads on and begs the question: what is the definition of a “trans kid”? When someone says they have one what do they mean?

Do they mean they have child who meets DSM5 criteria for gender dysphoria? Or ICD10 criteria for gender identity disorder of childhood?

Do they mean that their child meets the criteria involving stereotypes? If a child doesn’t meet that criteria for an official diagnosis can they still be a “trans kid”? If a child has body dysmorphia/dysphoria but not behaviour involving stereotypes are they a “trans kid”?

How many kids have met 6 out of 8 of those DSM 5 criteria at some point but the parents never once considered them to be a “trans kid” and let them crack on with toys, clothes, friends, wanting to be a boy/girl instead and just lived with it without labelling them a “trans kid”? I have a friend who is doing just that as an example.

No one can adequately define what a “trans kid” is without resorting to some stereotypes, yet this is the basis for which children are being placed on puberty blockers causing lifelong medicalisation, infertility and asexuality.

One thing that concerns me is trans self identification as a result of CSA.

So much this.

This is probably one of those areas which suffers as a result of very few people having the requisite insider knowledge. We CSA survivors don't tend to shout about it much, as a rule, and when we do it's very hard to speak honestly and openly.

It's bloody frustrating, the no debate angle, because it robs me of the possibility of talking to women and girls who share my experiences (because mine are 'transphobic' apparently) and robs them of the chance to learn that there are other ways of coping - nurturing a dissociative disorder is really not the healthiest way of dealing with the long-term psychological impact of sexualised abuse on the developing mind!

From the mermauds toys article linked above;

To put our hands up at the start, parents of trans kids do sometimes talk about toys and clothes. It helps explain their child’s gender identity.

I wonder why that is? Could it be because of a magic elusive concept that's hard to define?

"My daughter is a jeans-wearing, skateboarding trans girl. For her, being trans is nothing to do with wearing dresses or playing with dolls, it’s who she is deep down inside.”

Ah, that magical deep down inside certainty of gender identity that all children have.

In fairness, parents have been dissecting and observing their children’s toy and clothing choices for countless generations. Parents of trans kids are no different. Still, when parents of trans kids do so, it can be taken as a sign that clothes and toys are a guiding factor in the way they perceive their child’s gender identity.

Soo.. the parents ARE judging their children to be trans based on clothing choices?

For mum, Melanie, it’sotherpeople who seem obsessed with her daughter’s clothes and toys.

"Toys have played no part in my trans daughter’s gender identity whatsoever. She has always played with cars, dinosaurs and lego, occasionally playing with a doll. When dressing up she rarely dresses as a princess preferring to be a wizard or her own creation. Her choice of toys bears no impact upon the gender she identifies as.”

So what does? That's a lot of what doesn't without giving us something concrete as to what does!

“I think parents struggle sometimes to explain how their child came out as trans."

I think they do too Suzie. I think they do too.

@MondayYogurt

One thing that concerns me is trans self identification as a result of CSA. If becoming the other (or no) gender is victims method for dealing with abuse, then telling people 'no debate' is effectively trapping victims - and crucially, preventing perpetrators from being named. I wonder if perpetrators know this and endorse the rhetoric of silencing, as it protects them.

that is a grave concern especially in the situation with schools and their (now previous) affirmation - how many CSA victims have slipped through the net and had their issues masked by the process of transitioning?

Isn't disassociation with the body a common response to CSA?

I wonder how many schools have ended up accidentally preventing a child from disclosing their abuse by failing to ask any questions as soon as the 'trans issue' is identified?

Hopefully there have been more situations where a school counsellor has identified the trans as a symptom rather than a root cause and continued to investigate even against the guidance?

I posted two recent write ups by Mermaids and neither of them can define trans. They didn’t touch on the DSM/gender dysphoria stuff much either I felt. Surely the diagnosis for trans would be that? But, no “your child will tell you”

There’s no such thing as trans children and the shocking thing is the psychological community have known this for a long time. Trans kids were originally hypothesised in the 70s as the explanation for trans adults but this was debunked in the 80s. Trans adults report they used to be trans kids but this was found to be untrue (and probably post hoc justification). “Trans kids” either grow up to be straight and gender non conforming or gay adults. They don’t grow up into trans adults. I have no idea why all of this research was thrown out of the window but it was probably due to parents preferring a trans child to a gay one.

This "trans kid" whose story is being promoted by the Biden campaign seems typical, sadly.
southfloridagaynews.com/National/joe-biden-s-as-you-are-campaign-maps-hundreds-of-lgbt-acceptance-stories.html (watch the video)

I don't understand how people can not see what's happening in cases like this. It's all so regressive.

The short answer is no.

It’s a very dangerous path to go down saying that a child is trans just because they say so. It’s effectively what my daughter’s school did and would still be doing if it weren’t for us. I don’t think they are even listening to the reasons why we and her therapist think affirmation is damaging to her- conversations emphasise doing what the child wants.

Unfortunately we (society) somehow have fallen into a way of thinking that “trans” is just an identity, no big deal, just accept it at face value... This is a very light and easy way to ignore the complex underlying reasons a young person might feel this way.

Tyro

That sentiment is reflected here:

A few painful and difficult things have happened to me that I think were behind me wanting to be a man and not be a woman. I know I was not in the wrong, but they are things I can’t talk about publicly. What I know now is that transitioning wasn’t the way to deal with those things. You go to the gender clinic and within a couple of months you’re on testosterone. The psychiatrist said I was trans. I thought if they prescribed me testosterone then I must be trans. Aside from general questions, no one explored if there were other issues or challenged me.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/25f95e06-bf8f-11ea-9ea2-5a548b3aebca?shareToken=75babf4a323b8c27a8e0f256dd410655

Trans children exist in the same way Christian children or Muslim children exist.

As in, no child will come out of the womb reciting the shahada, or claiming Christ as their Lord and Saviour. They are taught these things through experiences filtered by their families and wider communities.

No child is born in the wrong sexed body. They are taught by their families and wider communities that each sex has a limited acceptable role, and they try and make sense of these messages.

What Daisies said

One person told me I should not be focusing on detransitioners when trans people are still struggling for acceptance.

Translation: all your focus should be on championing a really fucked up patriarchy-approved coping method; you shouldn't explore alternatives that involve reconciling with the site of your trauma.

I was bloody lucky. I found the second-wavers before I was exposed to the idea that girls can be trans too. Every CSA survivor should have that chance.

I would have fit the criteria on the DSM as a child, for about 10 years, so far longer than the 6 months required. Thank fuck I was born in sensible times where my parents let me have my hair short, choose my own clothes and toys etc. I've always been very insular about my thoughts and very private so it wasn't something I really shouted about a lot.

I've been diagnosed with autism now, which explains my feelings about not fitting in and having a horrendous time at puberty, wondering what the hell was happening to my body, hating the change, wanting to get rid of my breasts etc.

Almost every trans kid I know has autism, which I find very worrying. The others have been through some kind of trauma. I hate this affirmation only approach.

@NotBadConsidering

I posted this the other day. The only way a child can receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is if you believe in stereotypes. These are the criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children:

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
• A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

You need 6 out of these 8. But 4 of these can be deleted if you remove the stereotype bullshit.

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

So when people say they have a “trans kid” what they mean is they have a kid who probably expresses criteria 1, 7 and/or 8 and then has external views put upon them to meet criteria.

It’s utter bullshit.

The NHS used to have a very similar list to this.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200502223745/www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200502223745/www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

The page was changed on 28th May and now says:

A diagnosis of gender dysphoria in childhood is rare.

Most children who seem confused about their gender identity when young will not continue to feel the same way beyond puberty. Role playing is not unusual in young children.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms/

@FloralBunting

Trans children exist in the same way Christian children or Muslim children exist.

As in, no child will come out of the womb reciting the shahada, or claiming Christ as their Lord and Saviour. They are taught these things through experiences filtered by their families and wider communities.

No child is born in the wrong sexed body. They are taught by their families and wider communities that each sex has a limited acceptable role, and they try and make sense of these messages.

This. Floral. xx

A diagnosis of gender dysphoria in childhood is rare

Yet despite its rarity, they started 267 children on puberty blockers in a 6 year period, or one kid every 8 days .

www.bbc.com/news/health-49036145

Simple answer, no. Of course they can’t, fs. They might want to please parents by acting out stereotypes the parents force on them or read into what they play with wrong but that’s as far as it goes. For example, my kid was convinced she was a boy for wearing trousers to school (girls are only allowed skirts here) simply because other kids said she was because they had only seen boys wearing trousers. She was about the age people say their kids know they are the opposite sex, it just isn’t true. Kids minds are easily manipulated. Look at when a child says they are abused or that they aren’t but if an adult has an agenda they can ask leading questions and the kid will legit think they have been abused when not or vice versa, that alone is enough to show anyone that a kid cannot know if they are trans or not.

From one POV yes, obviously there are trans* kids, because there are kids who will one day transition physically and socially to “live as the opposite sex” Full time in the way of a traditional transsexual person. However not all “trans kids” transition if left alone to explore their gender freely and not all people who transition as adults identified as trans prior to puberty.

There’s really 4 categories. TRAs would like hormones to be given to any kid who asks for them. This practice will miss many trans adults and harm many people who would otherwise not transition:

Trans kids who will transition as adults - a few
Non trans kids who will transition as adults - a few
“Trans” kids who will not transition as adults - more than above groups
Non trans kids who will not transition as adults - most people

What it comes down to is that Activists completely are willing to throw all of these kids health and wellness under the bus in order to help a few males pass better as adults (there’s no discernible reason to transition girls early as testosterone is a bit of a one-way street - most Adult transitioning trans men can pass once they’ve been on hormones for a couple years And had mastectomy).

*note I’m using trans here under the traditional terminology of someone who actually seeks to transition not the new “it’s a feeling” crowd.

I am in my 60s, up to about the age of 12, I wanted to be a boy, as all the boys I knew seemed to have much more fun than me. Some of my girlfriends felt the same, and we created out own small football team, and challenged to boys, I used to wrestle with my brother, nobody thought anything of it, or said anything about it. Guess what? We all grew out of it.
I remember one friend whose breasts started to grow before anyone else's, she hated them, but as we all caught up it wasn't such a big deal, she was still not 100% happy, but that was because they were bigger than ours, and 'got in the way' some times.

None of this made us trans then, and I am certain it doesn't now, we pile so much shit on children's shoulders, and put our adult thoughts onto them, they are children, they don't think like adults, they don't like change, and they don't like being different; so if an adult gives them a 'reason' they are naïve and inexperienced, and trusting enough to accept it

It’s a very dangerous path to go down saying that a child is trans just because they say so

Thoroughly agree yet this is what Mermaids are effectively saying. Two articles written and you still can’t define it. So why is anyone pandering to it?

At least religion can be defined “I believe in X” and if I question Christianity I’m not called Christianphobic.

So, you set up a charity to help children with this “thing”. You can’t describe what the “thing” is - just ask the kids! It’s not a mental illness though.

If we try to ask what it is we are told to listen to trans kids, eDUcaTe ourselves or that we are transphobic

Gender related distress in kids (rooted in homophobia, sexism, misogyny, other complex issues) is obviously real and I wish there were better professional talking therapies available to help kids to navigate this. I wish CAMHS in general were better resourced for all kids with any kind of need.
That it isn’t is a national scandal.

However the concept of ‘trans kids’ is an adult projection and concept.

My 7 year old identifies as Trans.

I'm going to share my own experience as it might help someone understand/provide advice to me.

My first child. Male. Raised with no gender stereotypes.
I remember he loved books, trains, and anything musical when he was 1. He would only play with girls at nursery and by 2 would always wear a princess dress at nursery.

What I saw was my little boy playing at nursery. He was happy. Age 3 he was still obsessed with princess dresses and only played with girls, but also still obsessed with trains. I saw nothing but my happy little boy. There were girls that played with trains just as he played with princess dresses. It was when he was 3 that he started to say "I wish I was a girl" a lot! I always told him that he was a boy and he was free to like whatever he wanted just as girls are, but it just got more and more intense.

I always said the same thing and was positive in my approach that boys have all different likes and dislikes and personality types, and that there are loads of boys just like him. I thought it was a bit of a phase, kids like and want all different things don't they, but no matter how much I have reassured him over the years it's never stopped. He's always wanted to play with the girls, insisted he wished he was a girl, wanted to wear pretty clothes and have long hair, wants to dance but also loves trains and dinosaurs and boats, history and lots of other things. I've always treated it the same by seeing him as a boy that likes these things but thinking he would settle in time. It just got more intense.
10 months ago he said to me "I want to be a girl mum" and I said "I know" and went to continue speaking. And he interrupted "No mum, I am a girl, I want you to call me xxxxx, I want to dress like a girl, it just feels like me, I don't feel like me, I want to feel like me. Please can you just listen to me". He asked Santa to make him a girl and asked his teachers to call him a girls name and to go to school in a girls uniform.

It's been very difficult for me to try and understand, I cannot pretend I do, I can only say it as it is. I appreciate there's many opinions on this and I don't sit on either side of the fence, I can't work our quite what it is. I'm treating him like my child and understanding he's got a way to go to figure this out, he's the same person he's always been. I need to access some kind of proper counselling for him as so far with Covid we have only had chats on the phone.

I'm worried about him going for counselling because people might ask him questions about changing his body medically and put ideas in his head that aren't there at the moment. He's happy identifying as trans and a girl. Once you go down that road it's one you can't just turn back from easily. I worry as a parent.

I know it's not a sexuality thing, it's something different. He's had little girlfriends he kisses in the playground (that's another story) and he writes love letters to one girl in particular. He's never shown any interest in boys and we've always been open about gay relationships being completely normal.

I just wanted to share my experience as I'm certainly not someone that's raised him with gender stereotypes or pushed him to identify as trans.

we are told to listen to transkids but only the ones who are still stuck in the middle of it.

I'm reminded of the way we're supposed to unquestioningly accept the happy narratives given by women in prostitution but the women who managed to escape are always deemed unrepresentative and thus ignorable.

All adults who've experienced dysphoria since childhood may have valuable insights, but only those adults who decided transition was the best way forward are deemed worthy of listening to.

Takeme, you may not have consciously raised him with any stereotypes, but he didn't grow up in a bubble, there is a whole society around him, and he's only 7. Please, continue to accept him with all his personality quirks, always tell him the truth and be a good mum, which I'm sure you're doing already.