Do “trans kids” exist?

[Siameasy]

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

I never understood how that blatant piece of utter idiocy got past anyone. I very much doubt children under two even know what a "dress" is or how it differs from a dressing gown or long coat

I never understood how sensory issues eveb with nt children arent considered. I mean if you are hit you will undo jkir clothes.

Of something stabs itches or annoys you you rip it out/off

The only message it sends is " I dont wanna wear this"

And then no ones allowed to be surprised many turn out to be autistic...

@DaisiesandButtercups how do you explain the children of extremely GC parents coming out as trans?

Surely these children are the least likely to have been so indoctrinated by stereotypes?

(Also MBP is no longer a term used, it hasn’t been for some time)

Because other things also feature.

Abuse, trauma, social contagion, online

Autism
Lds

There are kids who develop gender dysphoria, certainly.

"Trans" is an identity though, and gender dysphoria isn't a prerequisite for it. It's a label applied by adults to justify and excuse a child's "deviant" behaviour (see: Mermaids' back catalogue).

If we're working within the confines of the gender-identity concept, then kids can't be trans because they haven't developed and settled into an adult identity yet. There's a parallel with being gay - we don't expect kids to know their adult sexuality aged three either.

If we're using trans as a shorthand for transsexual, then a child could only be considered trans if they've had surgery and hormones - ethical minefield, obviously, and not applicable to pre-pubertal kids (yet, thank fuck).

If we're using trans as a shorthand for "someone who transgresses gender stereotypes" then most kids qualify at some point in their life (mine definitely does), but this definition is a bit niche these days.

According to gender identity theory though, yes, some babies are born trans. It's one of the clues that the mainstream interpretation of the theory is utter bollocks.

I posted this the other day. The only way a child can receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is if you believe in stereotypes. These are the criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children:

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
• A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

You need 6 out of these 8. But 4 of these can be deleted if you remove the stereotype bullshit.

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

So when people say they have a “trans kid” what they mean is they have a kid who probably expresses criteria 1, 7 and/or 8 and then has external views put upon them to meet criteria.

It’s utter bullshit.

Does Occam’s razor not feature at all?

If a person, any person, is displaying signs of GD, meeting the criterion for diagnosis (the effect and intensity of thought and behaviour NOT just the thought/behaviour), it’s not in anyway possible that actually they do suffer from GD?

I do feel that the assessment process needs to be far more scrupulous when dealing with children/young people with other MH/neurodevelopmental conditions due to an overarching tendency to rigid, intense or intrusive thoughts, however I don’t think that any of the above should exclude a person from accessing assessment.

Children and young people with as d’s or LD’s are far more likely to die of very preventable conditions (both biologically and mental ill-health) due to not being given the same access and considerations as their NT peers.

A priori, that's the term my brain's being trying and failing to remember for months!

The "born in the wrong body" idea is predicated on everyone having an a priori understanding of themselves as a sexed individual.

There's precisely zero evidence for this statement, and a veritable mountain to suggest the understanding of oneself as a sexed individual is developed a posteriori; it's very much contingent on the context.

Well their health care isn't going to get amy better if drs have to pretend their sex doesn't actually exist , or they are given toxic drugs...

@NotBadConsidering whilst the behaviours and thoughts listed are a parent of what is considered during assessment, the most important element (as is the case with practically all mental health and neurodevelopmental conditions) is the intensity, rigidity and effect of the thoughts/behaviour.

Again, if you take OCD, every human on the planet has schemas (patterns of behaviour) that could be described as part of the assessment process for OCD, however it is the intensity, rigidity and effect (intrusive thoughts etc) that make the behaviour ACTUALLY part of the criteria for an OCD diagnosis. The same applies to a diagnosis of GD.

@PinkyU

When I say adults I mean not just parents who can sometimes feel powerless to protect their children from this harmful ideology in the face of pressures from social media, schools, health professionals and the all the many various organisations promoting gender ideology.

If a person, any person, is displaying signs of GD, meeting the criterion for diagnosis (the effect and intensity of thought and behaviour NOT just the thought/behaviour), it’s not in anyway possible that actually they do suffer from GD?

But a child can only meet the criteria if a clinician agrees that stereotypes for toys and clothes and friendships exist. If a clinician doesn’t believe this, a child can never meet criteria. I’ve seen this in practice. A psychiatrist wrote a girl was showing signs of gender variance by being in “boy’s clothes” ie jeans and boots .

Any diagnosis that relies on whether a clinician agrees with society’s outdated views on toys and clothes isn’t worth shit.

So if you remove that to make it more objective, what are you left with? What makes a child “trans” and how do you assess for it?

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

Very well put notbad.

@ThousandsAreSailing

I don't think people realise how many disorders /conditions are created by our society. Like anorexia it is a symptom of an underlying disorder. Usually trauma or anxiety- both caused by family or society If it's trans but not dysphoria then it's society telling the child their personality is wrong for their sex Looking at how disorders present in different societies is interesting. I was looking at anorexia, it wasn't present in some societies until they got western TV. In other countries its presentation was very different

My teenage ds (mentally much younger) frequently tells me he wants to be a girl. He has ASD. I think the poster above has hit the nail on the head- my DS isn't your average boy, he is very feminine, quite immature compared with his peers and prefers the company of girls. He gets called "gay" and a "puff" by kids at school. In reality I don't think he has a clue yet what his sexual orientation is. I think society is the problem in making him feel like he isn't manly enough or that his personality doesn't fit his gender. He is a lovely son and I hate that he feels so out of place in his own body because of other peoples stupid comments. We try not to make a big deal out of it at home and I try to positively reinforce that he is fine just the way he is. I hope it helps him but it is very sad to watch and I think peoples comments and all this information about trans stuff just ends up confusing him and making him think that there is a problem with him when actually its other people. Society has a lot to answer for!

[quote PinkyU]**@NotBadConsidering* whilst the behaviours and thoughts listed are a parent of what is considered during assessment, the most important element (as is the case with practically all* mental health and neurodevelopmental conditions) is the intensity, rigidity and effect of the thoughts/behaviour.

Again, if you take OCD, every human on the planet has schemas (patterns of behaviour) that could be described as part of the assessment process for OCD, however it is the intensity, rigidity and effect (intrusive thoughts etc) that make the behaviour ACTUALLY part of the criteria for an OCD diagnosis. The same applies to a diagnosis of GD.[/quote]
Cross post, but again, why does the intensity and rigidity matter when it comes to clothes, toys and friendships? Why does a boy who rigidly and intensively wants to play with dolls for more than 6 months matter? Because a child has to do that to meet criteria.

It only matters if a parent or a clinician thinks that a boy who rigidly or intensely plays with dolls for more than 6 months is a problem.

Pinky you refer to the rigidity of the beliefs being the key factor but that hasn't been the narrative around the debate at all. The affirmation route goes along with the idea the child is trans from the moment a boy wants to dress up as a princess.

I accept that some children may show strong signs of GD but there is no way for a young child to truly understand what being trans is.

If parents and clinicians ignore intensive and rigid behaviour involving stereotypes that is for more than 6 months in duration, because their own prejudicial thoughts are impacting their view of a child, how else could a child be said to have gender dysphoria?

Katie Alcock, Senior Lecturer in Psychology, Lancaster University, did a fascinating lecture on this at the February Women's Place conference.

Children's ideas of sex can be very much mixed up with gender, this mainly resolves itself by 10.

www.transgendertrend.com/young-children/

From what I've read, a child who identified as the opposite sex, both pre and post puberty, and maintained that whilst getting appropriate support could have genuine life long gender dysphoria. I think Zucker found 2 out of 10 children at his clinic in Canada, did persist, and he supported them to transition.

Someone can only make that decision as an adult.

If you remove the stereotypes you are left with hatred of one’s own body. This is very real for some young people (not implying that anyone here thinks otherwise!) and can manifest in ways like a crippling inability to take a shower, go out in public etc. Exposure to social media or schools or whatever, pushing the idea of a “trans child” further reinforces the idea that this feeling is just an identity rather than the complex psychological condition that it actually is and so it becomes more and more important in the young person’s mind.

I would personally argue that in many cases, hatred of one’s body is a manifestation of hatred of oneself and where identified - which means decent psychological support- that is what needs to be addressed through therapy, not a sending down a medical path of PBs, hormones etc. I think we would see cases plummet it there were a societal shift away from the “trans child” and a broad acceptance that a therapeutical path is suitable for these young people.

@NotBadConsidering the NHS criteria seems to have far more focus on the intensity and effect of thoughts and behaviour than the American site you’ve used.

Those poor American kids.

Associated significant distress is needed for the diagnosis.

Kids can be pretty significantly distressed by being repeatedly told their preferences and behaviours are wrong for their sex.

If you strip out all the kids whose distress is rooted in others' inability to accept them as eg boys who like dolls and dresses, we're left with kids whose distress is centred on the sexed body itself (a sign of having suffered sexual trauma of some sort). These children cannot meet the diagnostic criteria unless stereotypes are brought in.

You can only get a diagnosis if you've internalised the stereotypes.

PinkyU

I’m on the thread, you don’t need to keep @ ing me.

The criteria I’ve listed are the DSM 5 criteria which are the basis of most diagnosis worldwide. The ICD 10 diagnosis is this:

F64.2 Gender identity disorder of childhood: A disorder, usually first manifest during early childhood (and always well before puberty), characterized by a persistent and intense distress about assigned sex, together with a desire to be (or insistence that one is) of the other sex. There is a persistent preoccupation with the dress and activities of the opposite sex and repudiation of the individual's own sex. The diagnosis requires a profound disturbance of the normal gender identity; mere tomboyishness in girls or girlish behavior in boys is not sufficient. Gender identity disorders in individuals who have reached or are entering puberty should not be classified here but in F66.0.

Again, there is prominence given to stereotypes. It is less in the ICD10.

But the phrase “profound disturbance” is key here. But I know from personal experience and those reported here that children have been diagnosed without feeling profound disturbances. The criteria are misused and not fit for purpose, whichever criteria you use.

Rogdmum is correct. Those who are left are those with significant body dysphoria and those are the ones that need significant help, not the toddlers who pull hair clips out or girls who like football.

One thing that concerns me is trans self identification as a result of CSA.
If becoming the other (or no) gender is victims method for dealing with abuse, then telling people 'no debate' is effectively trapping victims - and crucially, preventing perpetrators from being named.
I wonder if perpetrators know this and endorse the rhetoric of silencing, as it protects them.

You can only get a diagnosis if you've internalised the stereotypes.

Perfectly put, summed up what I was trying to say.