Do “trans kids” exist?

[Siameasy]

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

If he wants to wear a skirt and school will only let him if he identifies as a girl, then play up merry hell about the sexist dress code!

My gut instinct would be to be as supportive of his feelings as you can while making it clear that there's no such thing as being a girl on the inside; don't affirm, do the watchful waiting that used to be recommended, and statistically there's an 80% chance he'll come out the other side of puberty understanding that he's a boy.

I'm sure this is pretty much the first conversation you had with him, but have you explored (to the extent you want to touch the issue) what 'being a girl' means to him? I agree with all PP who say they'd have 'chosen' to be a boy if they could - I definitely would have done. George from the FF was basically my role model, because the alternative, Anne, was just a million miles from me!

Just wondering what it is about the concept of being a girl that so appeals to him.

He doesn't have to identify as a girl for the dress code so it's not that, and he came out and said he wanted to actually be a girl and be called xxxx in November, I would say it was the end of January he said he thought he was trans.

I've asked about the name and why he feels he is a girl but the only answer I get is "it just feels like me" and he points to his chest, and we do chat about it a lot. He knows he can, he knows stereotypes are wrong and he understands he has a penis but insists he is a girl. But the only reason I get is "it feels like me".

Watchful waiting is why I don't want to push any counselling that will suggest or ask about medical intervention. I can appreciate fully that nobody figures themselves out in a day and he's well supported. I just feel so alone in that I know nobody else to support me who's been in this position.

I really like the idea Sasha White has here about referring to both a child's identities in the third person . So for instance if Jennie wants to change her name to John you just chat "tell me about John" "How does John see things differently to Jennie?" "How does John like to dress and how does Jennie like to dress?"

It seems like a nice way to be respectful and not alienate your child whilst not affirming.

gdworkinggroup.org/2018/11/12/how-i-work-with-rogd-teens/

@CaptainInsensible

Who was that guy who said that you can tell babies who are trans because the girls will want to take their hair clips out? Can’t remember the name but it was definitely the only possible reason for a baby wanting a hair clip out of her hair

Yes - same one I believe that declared a baby boy trans because he kept in popping the poppers on his baby grow - because he ‘wanted a dress’.

I ask you ...

It was after he told school about it that he had found some books in the library about it and from reading the book that he discovered the term trans and identifies with it.

I'd be very interested to know what book that was!

I think that line of questioning would have been very valuable for me, @HPFA.

My childhood 'alter ego' was a boy version of myself, probably my older brother. I was thrilled when allowed to wear his cast-off 'boy' brown bomber jacket to school. (My mother was nothing if not frugal.)

So,

Q. Jamie, what is it about being 'alter ego' that makes you feel better?

A. I feel safer, more interesting. Boys have all the fun. Boys are better.

Q. Why do you think that about boys?

A. Because that's what you all keep telling me and showing me.

These days, you can reverse the poles on that as required. But girls are still vulnerable to horrific misogyny. So I'm not surprised so many are 'transitioning'.

My sister had a boy alter ego! She tried to give me one too but I didn’t like being called Bill very much. She was the ultimate Tom boy and would have ripe pickings for today’s trends.

I find it horrifying that these transgender books are available at school. As other posters have commented, they lie to children about what in reality is achievable. I am also wondering if any adult may have discussed with your child.

My youngest is also 7, incredibly bright and thoughtful and ponders the symbolic meaning of certain colours. She would not really get the concepts of sex, gender and female socialisation unless I spent quite a lot of time discussing it with her. Even then, she would only have quite a superficial grasp of the concepts. She would also be inclined to trust my opinion in most things and follow it as she a) trusts me and b) would be unable to spot logical flaws in my argumentation if I was careful. We disagree on certain things (like music practice), but I would find it quite strange if she came home with a concept like this from a book .

I suppose we have books about witches and fairies, of child detectives and talking monsters - even the bible We should explain to the children that books aren’t all truth.

@OneEpisode

I hope Spuddddd can find some great Gender Non Confirming role models for her teen. The video posted here recently of the Tavistock worker explaining the GIDS model (to the Irish equivalent of CAMHS?) gave an example where a small boy was being teased for playing with dolls, and good steps were 1) find a good man 2) get him to play with the dolls with the child. That’s it. Good steps were not “pretending that the child could change sex“, “changing schools and pretending to be a girl at the new school”, or “giving radical medication”.

There used to be places where you could find those GNC role models, but it is getting harder?

@OneEpisode thanks I will look into this. I do think some of his wanting to be a girl is down to his ASD and the fact that boys are too rough for him. His dad let him down massively as a child and walked out on us so again I think this adds to his hatred of men. I always try to point out the positives of being male but I don't know if thats good or bad. I have told him we are all unique and he is allowed to like the things he likes and be a boy. He thinks boys are disgusting and is surrounded by women in our family. He is also really struggling with puberty and all the changes going on with himself and I think that all combined creates a muddles message in his head.

for you Spuddddd. A teen with ASD probably thought about this for a long time by the time they spoke about it, and ASD boys aren’t known for flexibility. Good luck.

I definitely would’ve believed there is such a thing as a male brain in a female body as a kid, if the idea had been floated. Like a PP i idolised George of the 5 but is it a surprise when Anne was so NAFF?!
Over the years people have said to me I’m “like a man” “a gay man in a woman’s body” and I have previously wondered if there was a mistake and I got a male brain.
I will add I’m toying with getting assessed for ADHD so that could be a factor

@Takemeawayfrom2020

What do I do about the name he wants to be called, wanting to wear a skirt to school ect?

My inclination would be that it's good to keep in mind these aren't probably the direct cause of his saying he wants to be a girl. He may want to do them because he sees them as the things girls do, or as things that would show he is a girl.

As far as name changing, would you let him change it if he wanted to have a different boys name, Rodger, say? If not, I think you can just say that kids can change their names legally when they are adults.

The skirt thing I might not forbid mainly because it might give him something to push back against. But i also don't believe that barring issues around particular physical needs, any child has a pressing need to wear one type of clothing over another. Clothes don't make us who we are, and learning that comes in part from experiencing it.

I'd be looking very carefully about what the school is teaching the kids. And I would be direct about the fact that it is not possible to become a girl nor does a girl feel a specific way inside. Though I'd also try and avoid talking about it too much.

George in the FF every time, but did anyone here identify with Susan in Swallows and Amazons? Any child, I mean? One of the things I loved about S&A was that there were three ok girls in those books, and only one I found a pain.

Oh, and CopsCantCatchCriminals
Vegan cats exist. Don't they?

I don't think they would be very healthy if they were truly vegan, because cats are obligate carnivores.

I have a friend whose some has absolutely insisted that he wants to wear feminine clothes, have his hair long and be called she not he.

I've had a fair few conversations with her and she has several other children as well as two grown up ones and she's not the sort you mess with. She's very no nonsense but recognises that this self expression makes him happy and supports him without making a big fuss about it or twisting biology to suit the current trans ideology iyswim. He's also diagnosed with asd and adhd and it's possible that the textures of the clothes feel nicer than traditional 'boy' clothes.

She told me that there was no way she was going anywhere near Mermaids, and that she'll just see how it all pans out. He told her at 4 and he's 9 now, so I guess he's a trans child.

As others have said Takemeaway, the experience of your son doesn't sound any different to the experience of gender non conforming children throughout history with the exception that kids are now being bombarded by trans ideology.

I'm sure many on here will disagree with me but I'm very much of the opinion that some boys are born with a feminine personality, and vice versa. Debra Soh outlines the science in her book The End of Gender. I've personally known four men from infancy that were always feminine, three have grown up to be happy, successful, gay men (the forth is a recluse who I don't believe has ever had a relationship) It was evident in these children from as young as a year old that they didn't behave like other boys, they always chose girls as friends and liked stereotypical 'girl toys' and activities, even more so than most girls did. This continued throughout their childhood and back then they were generally just accepted without all this trans nonsense.

Your sons identification as trans, the change of name and importance of school uniform comes straight from the trans rulebook. I would be 100% clear that it is impossible to change sex but yes I'd let him change his name or start to call him some mutually agreed nickname that may be softer or more feminine than his birth name (I was always called Charlie rather than my girly real name) As for school uniform, I'm not sure anyone really enjoys wearing it so I'd probably expect him to accept that but encourage him to experiment to create his own flamboyant style outside of school.

I'm sure many on here will disagree with me but I'm very much of the opinion that some boys are born with a feminine personality, and vice versa. Debra Soh outlines the science in her book The End of Gender. I've personally known four men from infancy that were always feminine, three have grown up to be happy, successful, gay men (the forth is a recluse who I don't believe has ever had a relationship) It was evident in these children from as young as a year old that they didn't behave like other boys, they always chose girls as friends and liked stereotypical 'girl toys' and activities, even more so than most girls did. This continued throughout their childhood and back then they were generally just accepted without all this trans nonsense.

Whoah there. You're posting on the feminism board. Enough with the sexual stereotyping! You say three out of four quiet, gentle boys who liked playing with girls' toys turned out to be gay and the fourth boy's a recluse, thus effectively saying that 'normal' boys aren't quiet and gentle. Presumably you think that noisy, rumbustious girls who like playing with cars and robots will also grow up to become lesbians and recluses too? You're exemplifying precisely the gender stereotyping we're complaining about.

I was reading about the Spartans...
‘Taken from home at the age of 7... they learned wrestling, gymnastics, were taught to fight’ this was the girls...

Strange how times and attitudes change?Of course the boys had an even shittier time...

Do trans kids exist? Are there such things as trans kids?

Of course it depends what 'trans kid' means.

1. A trans kid is a kid with a boy's body who is actually a girl, or a kid with a girl's body who is actually a boy? No, these are contradictory. A kid with a boy's body is a boy; a kid with a girl's body is a girl. Being a boy means you are not a girl. Being a girl means you are not a boy. No such things as trans kids if this is what a trans kid is.

1. A trans kid is a boy who would like to be girl, or a girl who would like to be a boy? This is a little more difficult to sort out. What is it to want something impossible? Is it possible to want something impossible? ("I would like this circle to be square"? "I would like black to be white"? "I would like to live forever."?) Some think it is, some think not. But, arguably, if this is what a trans kid is, then yes, there are such things as trans kids.

1. A trans kid is a boy who believes he is a girl or a girl who believes she is a boy? Like (2) this is a bit tricky. What is it to believe something not just false but impossible? ("I believe this circle is square."? "I believe black is white."? "I believe I will live forever."?) Some think this makes sense, some think not. But, again arguably, if this is what a trans kid is, then yes, there are such things as trans kids.

Anything else suggested? Is there a (4)? Let us assume not. (Or is there? ... Remember you are not to talk of stereotypes.)

-- What to do if your kid is a trans kid? If your kid is a trans kid, this can only be true, at best, in the sense of (2) or (3). What to do? ... Explain (1) to your kid. If she/he is too young to understand, distract him/her in the usual way. Explain again later if necessary.

@Spuddddd , just as a comment. Our son was very feminine when he was little, also surrounded by women (me, two sisters and grandmother) as my husband works long hours. He sometimes dressed up in princess dresses and said that made him a girl. He also played a lot with girls at nursery.

He is now 10 and in a boys only school. He plays football, but is also interested in drawing, music and computers. He has some friends that are stereotypical boys (mainly football boys), but some of his friends are the most sensitive and sweet boys you can imagine. I know that single sex schools not are for everyone, but we have found that it removes stereotypes.

My oldest daughter is very into maths and coding and nobody at her girls school is telling her that “girls don’t do that”. She once went to a coding camp (aged about 9), turned out to be the only girl and had a group of boys from a coed school telling her that “girls can’t code”. She just told them they were idiots and showed them that she was better at coding than they were.

I sometimes despair of the gender roles that are forced on so many children these days. I think many may feel pushed into behaving in a way that is completely alien to them and makes them uncomfortable. Then some ruthless organisation like Mermaids turns up and tells them that the magic solution is to “change gender”.

Girls hackathon... just popped up in my inbox:

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/teens-in-ai-aldhack2020-global-hackathon-online-tickets-117773986163

(Oops not just for girls - I’m sure it has been in the last).

Shedbuilder, I knew I was going to upset some on here but I don't think denying biological differences is doing men, women or those thinking they are trans any favours.