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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Do “trans kids” exist?

212 replies

Siameasy · 29/09/2020 09:27

Following on from yesterday discussion:

With it becoming increasingly clear that we cannot define “trans”, genuine sufferers of Gender Dysphoria aside, how can there be such a thing as a trans kid?

Reading the “new rules” from Mermaids how would I know if my kid is trans?

Can babies be trans?

OP posts:
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6
CaptainInsensible · 30/09/2020 07:27

@KnowingYou

I don’t really subscribe to “gender identities”. I prefer biological sex and allowing everyone to have the preferences and personality they feel comfortable with.

That’s fine until you meet someone who is more comfortable with a body more the opposite sex to what they were born with. Then you realise it’s not just about preferences and personalities.

I’m not comfortable in the body I was born with. Not happy with these large breasts, I really don’t feel that they reflect my personality or who I am inside. Not happy being less strong than a man. Should I get my breasts off and start taking testosterone? The most horrifying thing I’ve seen in this whole trans situation was a young trans man who had posted on Instagram that he had managed to fight the dysphoria and get to the swimming pool and managed to swim. Obviously brilliant that he was able to swim as he wanted to. But this was a young woman who had had her breasts removed, had a beard, and had had phalloplasty, but still had dysphoria (I’m using she/her because that’s what she was when having these treatments) So after all those many surgeries and interventions, the feeling of the body not being right was still there. So what kind of charlatan was advising this person to have all these treatments that would fix the dysphoria? I can only assume that adequate psychological support was not received. Are we really saying that going down this road is a good idea?
Clymene · 30/09/2020 07:41

@KnowingYou

there's an 80% chance he'll come out the other side of puberty understanding that he's a boy.

Yes. What do you want to do with the other 20%?

Watchful waiting, home ed and supervised internet access
LadyFlumpalot · 30/09/2020 07:45

Jesus Christ. If we accept that children are by law too immature to make the decision to buy a fucking Party Popper or Christmas Cracker until they are 18 years old then surely we need to accept that children are too immature to be offered damaging drugs and surgery to change their bodies based on a hormone surge in puberty?

CaptainInsensible · 30/09/2020 07:50

@LadyFlumpalot

Jesus Christ. If we accept that children are by law too immature to make the decision to buy a fucking Party Popper or Christmas Cracker until they are 18 years old then surely we need to accept that children are too immature to be offered damaging drugs and surgery to change their bodies based on a hormone surge in puberty?
You’d think that’d be fairly obvious to most people wouldn’t you? But apparently not
FireUnderTheHand · 30/09/2020 07:53

@LadyFlumpalot

Jesus Christ. If we accept that children are by law too immature to make the decision to buy a fucking Party Popper or Christmas Cracker until they are 18 years old then surely we need to accept that children are too immature to be offered damaging drugs and surgery to change their bodies based on a hormone surge in puberty?
100%
TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 30/09/2020 08:07

What do I want to do with the other 20%, who come out the other side of puberty still persistent in their distress?

I dunno, commiserate? Join them in agitating for decent therapy and evidence based treatments for their psychological distress? Gently remind them where necessary that their birth sex might unfortunately preclude them from being included in certain things, and then continue treating them as human beings?

FireUnderTheHand it sounds like you've done a better job of sorting yourself out than I've managed so far. Will have to have another look at your comment about compartmentalisation when I've got a bit more caffeine down me because at the moment I can see it's English but I can't make the words make sense.

I didn't go the asexual route, I just had no sense of my own agency whatsoever. This receptacle was taught to perform - the sex-pozzy crap really didn't help with that - and it took until my thirties to start seriously considering whether I'm attracted to men at all (answer: no).

WhoseThatGirl · 30/09/2020 08:08

My DDs best friend was what mermaids would describe as ‘gender non confirming’ from an early age. He loved dolls, dresses and pink etc. When he was around 5/6 he started to get a lot of comments from other kids. Suddenly he hated being a boy and wanted to be a girl and would get quite distressed about it. Then he got into dance. Dance was a world where he could wear fancy clothes with glitter and sequins and where being a boy was an advantage, he got all the main parts as there were very few boys. His parents also made sure he was aware of other role models such as drag queens (controversial I know) who didn’t conform in the way other primary school students expect little boys to. He is a thriving now and never says he wants to be a girl anymore because he is realised there is more to being a boy than cars and superhero’s.
Me and his mother still shudder about how easily he would have taken up the trans ideology and ended up going down a route where he was never happy in his body and with himself.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/09/2020 08:12

My sister was to opposite way (obviously). This was the 70s... she came out in the 80s (when it meant something to come out - not today when primary school kids are announcing that they are ‘whatever’).

Still a woman. Would have ticked all the boxes today for a overzealous teacher today...

FireUnderTheHand · 30/09/2020 08:30

@Takemeawayfrom2020

He doesn't have to identify as a girl for the dress code so it's not that, and he came out and said he wanted to actually be a girl and be called xxxx in November, I would say it was the end of January he said he thought he was trans.

I've asked about the name and why he feels he is a girl but the only answer I get is "it just feels like me" and he points to his chest, and we do chat about it a lot. He knows he can, he knows stereotypes are wrong and he understands he has a penis but insists he is a girl. But the only reason I get is "it feels like me".

Watchful waiting is why I don't want to push any counselling that will suggest or ask about medical intervention. I can appreciate fully that nobody figures themselves out in a day and he's well supported. I just feel so alone in that I know nobody else to support me who's been in this position.

I've asked about the name and why he feels he is a girl but the only answer I get is "it just feels like me" and he points to his chest

Constantly asking:
"What does feeling like a girl feel like, what does that mean?"
"You have a boy's body, right?"
"Since you have a boy's body can you tell me what it feels like to be a boy?"
"If you can't tell me how it feels to be a boy and you have a boy's body how can you possibly say you feel like a girl?"
"Would you like me (a woman and your mom) to tell you what it feels like to be a girl and then a woman?"
If he answers no I would explain that you are qualified as per your body to comment on feeling like a girl/woman (female) whereas he is not as he is a boy (male).

With all due respect, he has been influenced... perhaps you tell him Santa isn't real? Santa is a legendary character imagined up by society like how gender is imagined up by society. They are both different depending on the culture for example in France Santa is Père Noël (children leave their shoes by the fireplace filled with carrots and treats for Père Noël's donkey, Gui, Père Noël takes the offerings and, if the child has been good, leaves small presents in their shoes) in the US we have Santa Claus (comes down the chimney (if you have one) eats cookies/milk and fills hanging stockings with small gifts and leaves large gifts under a Xmas tree) and also Papa Noël (comes by boat and accompanied by alligators) and so on and so forth.

Yes crushing Santa for him will be awful but it may go a long way in explaining reality versus beliefs. Santa doesn't exist except in theory and the same goes for gender - and gender is hurting him because he doesn't think he is the 'right' kind of boy. His belief is that he 'feels like a girl' but reality shows him that he can only 'feel like a boy' because that is what he is. It is impossible to know what it feels like to be anything other than what you are, reality is paramount. His heart doesn't know the pain of being treated like a girl - his heart knows the pain of being treated like an outcast boy.

LadyFlumpalot · 30/09/2020 08:35

The idea that an over zealous teacher or youth worker should decide that my sensitive, kind and caring son who prefers reading to booting a football around is actually trans scares me so much that I almost want to push him away from his true self and push him towards as many "little boy" stereotypes as possible to keep him safe.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/09/2020 08:38

I wonder if some teachers, youth workers etc volunteer to be the lead in ‘supporting’ these children?

As I’ve always said about politicians - those who really really really want the job as the ones that really shouldn’t get it.

FireUnderTheHand · 30/09/2020 08:52

TyroBurningDownTheCloset

FireUnderTheHand it sounds like you've done a better job of sorting yourself out than I've managed so far. Will have to have another look at your comment about compartmentalisation when I've got a bit more caffeine down me because at the moment I can see it's English but I can't make the words make sense.

I'm sorry I was trying to be clear but it is 3:30am here - can't get my brain to shut down (as usual, ADHD yay!). I'd love to discuss when/if you can work out my word soup and if not I can re-word so it comes out as English rather than insomniac brain language.

I didn't go the asexual route, I just had no sense of my own agency whatsoever. This receptacle was taught to perform - the sex-pozzy crap really didn't help with that - and it took until my thirties to start seriously considering whether I'm attracted to men at all (answer: no).

For reference, I was also burned very badly at 12(ish)yrs old on my pelvis so my external genitalia is disfigured somewhat which was a huge barrier to any sexual exploration until mid-teens. I began experimenting with other girls my age under cover in the dark and tried experimenting with boys. Didn't allow myself to relax enough to enjoy any sexual experiences but had a lot of them. I described myself as asexual as I did it to please the people I was with not because I liked anything about - everything about it made my skin crawl. Never touched myself except for function (menses), couldn't look at it at all until mid-20s. Granted, my CSA was compounded with disfigurement but CSA alone does a number on us doesn't it? Before the burn I wasn't any better off.

/Sorry for the merail

CandyLeBonBon · 30/09/2020 09:47

My god @FireUnderTheHand that sounds horrific for you. I'm so sorry Thanks

TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 30/09/2020 10:13

Let's have the plain English version, Fire, it's probably easier, at least until I've made your psychologese click with mine.

I went for fat as a psychological defence mechanism, which I suspect functioned in a similar way to your disfigurement (Flowers) - I was repulsed, assumed everyone else would be repulsed, couldn't relax or let anyone see. Also had the side effect of limiting experimentation possibilities rather. Not allowing yourself to relax enough to enjoy anything certainly resonates; in fact the only person I managed to relax with was a known fat-fetishist, which brought its own problems. I was able to perform to his satisfaction, and got some enjoyment out of his satisfaction (because I felt I was doing 'normal woman' right), but it always involved a heightened separation between body and mind, as though the inner bit that's me was watching and analysing from behind a screen.

This seems a good moment to give a shout-out to both FWR and Relationships, who taught me this is not what healthy relationships and consent look like!

I have wondered about asexuality recently, but having pondered previous experiences, it's more been a case that I don't acknowledge when I fancy women, and trusted others when they told me I fancy men. A lot of that, I think, isn't limited to CSA survivors - everyone assumes you fancy a bloke if you get on well with him, and no one seems to consider that your protests might be a sign that you're not actually interested in sex with men.

I'll apologise for the derail too, but I feel the discussion is relevant to the OP given how many trans-identifying minors have similar experiences.

umbel · 30/09/2020 11:31

This reply has been deleted

Deleted at OP's request

BatShite · 30/09/2020 13:54

Not in the sense stonewall/mermaids make out, where any girl who likes 'boys' things is trans.

Yes in the sense that a very very few kids will actually grow up to be transsexual.

I can well believe that there are kids who have sex dysphroria and will persists in this dysphoria as adults. I do not accept that any kid who is not a barbie/action man is trans and should be medicated obviously Hmm I think many of todays problems lie in removing the dysphoria element of the description tbh. It changed the game, completely and made it all nonsensical really. But of course, dysphoria couldnt be a part of it when the many late transitioners very much love their male bodies..and the whole movement revlves around such males it seems.

BatShite · 30/09/2020 14:00

@NotBadConsidering

I posted this the other day. The only way a child can receive a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is if you believe in stereotypes. These are the criteria for diagnosis of gender dysphoria in children:

In children, gender dysphoria diagnosis involves at least six of the following and an associated significant distress or impairment in function, lasting at least six months.

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender
• A strong preference for wearing clothes typical of the opposite gender
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• A strong rejection of toys, games and activities typical of one’s assigned gender
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

You need 6 out of these 8. But 4 of these can be deleted if you remove the stereotype bullshit.

So how can any child be diagnosed with gender dysphoria? The only way is if parents or a healthcare professional abides by society’s bullshit rules around toys and clothes.

So when people say they have a “trans kid” what they mean is they have a kid who probably expresses criteria 1, 7 and/or 8 and then has external views put upon them to meet criteria.

It’s utter bullshit.

Yup, this is a huge problem. And another reason I think it would be best to remove 'gender dysphoria' entirely from the equation. How can you have dysphpria over a social construct ffs..

And sex dysphoria should be used instead. No steretype nonsense..TRAs would hate this though.

That kids can be diagnosed on nothing but stereotypes and possibly set on a lifelong medical pathway was always one of the most bonkers parts of this whole thing for me..

TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 30/09/2020 15:43

Of course you can have dysphoria over a social construct. I do (and for the record, the TRA insistence on pointing to the stereotypes of performed femininity and insisting the appropriate label is 'woman' makes it worse).

The bit that's fucked up is encouraging the sufferer to internalise the problem. The thing that makes gnc kids dysphoric is the people, society, and culture that tells them they're some flavour of wrong just for liking what they like.

BatShite · 30/09/2020 16:39

Possibly wrong word? I would say that not wanting to follow stereotypes was not dysphoria..and is indeed probably more common than not having issues with them.

The diagnostic list is just ridiculous to me..

TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 30/09/2020 17:05

"Not wanting to follow stereotypes" is quite a broad spectrum though.

Plenty of women say fuck the stereotypes and wear what they want. Some of us, though, find being forced/required/expected to perform femininity stereotypes incredibly psychologically distressing, for a variety of reasons, generally rooted in sexualised violence and trauma.

The thing to note about the diagnostic list is that the patient has to be suffering significant distress or impairment in function as a result of the imposition of the stereotypes. If you can say fuck the stereotypes and get on with your life without major psychological incident, then your mental position re stereotypes isn't sufficiently out of whack (compared to the cultural norm) to constitute "disordered thinking".

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 30/09/2020 17:15

And being required at work to conform to the stereotype by wearing stiletto heels can be actually harmful to your Achilles tendon, as well as laying up bunions, ingrowing toenails and the like for later in your life. (Yes, I know it is not legal for that to be a requirement any more, but it's an example of physical, as opposed to psychological, distress.)

Many people don't suffer these damaging effects from wearing stilettoes, but those who do definitely suffer significant distress or impairment in function as a result of being stereotyped.

movingonup20 · 30/09/2020 17:38

I honestly think it is possible from a young age to feel you are the other gender but it's very rare. More common in teens - but a multitude of reasons. Why it's so common now is a mystery though, I blame our obsession with looks

TyroBurningDownTheCloset · 30/09/2020 17:51

The stiletto comparison is useful.

If your feet can handle stilettos then they're not causing you major distress.

I've no idea if my feet can handle stilettos or not, because I've never worn them, because they're culturally coded "sexy/feminine female" and I cannot inhabit that stereotype without psychological distress rooted in CSA. It's a trauma response, worthy of sympathy perhaps but ultimately not helped long-term by pandering.

In fairness, I think dysphoria is very common among women, it's just that most manage to find a way to navigate the requirements and cope with life.

FireUnderTheHand · 30/09/2020 19:06

Let's have the plain English version, Fire, it's probably easier, at least until I've made your psychologese click with mine.

When I say compartmentalization I am referring to a component of dissociation I experienced which IMO is like a dissociation lite topic.

As a child my emotions became like little figurines - as a coping mechanism. Without thought or intent each feeling of disgust or sadness or suffering was neatly placed in its own box or shared a box (parent was mean today, parent was not receptive today, parent was distant and dismissive, whatever) in my mind... these boxes floated freely through my conscious and all was pretty okay until those boxes started crashing together, when the contents mixed it was explosive. Psychologists typically see this defense mechanism as a negative trait and as a result I was never able to get any help from the therapists I was sent to (for my parents divorce) as they would not dig deeper and assumed I was just sad because my family was falling apart. Their objective was for me to stop employing coping mechanisms, the putting things in boxes isn't dealing with them in the therapists' eyes. My armor was so opaque that it was seemingly impenetrable (I catalogued all of those bad feelings, leaving them to be dealt with at a later date). Effective but very dangerous if left unchecked.

At some point during my maturation (22ish?) I found the words to discuss what I did unintentionally with my feelings. I had my first epiphany about the danger of the boxes crashing together... I realized that when that happened I would lose control and go completely numb. That was a jump point - I started digging through those mental boxes from childhood reliving the traumas and trying to work out where I went... where the secure and happy little girl went. When I thought it was clear that she died and a new version appeared in her place I mourned the original version of me, the version that saw beauty in every nook and cranny. In trying to love the damaged version of myself (saw the world similarly but did not feel like part of the world as I was the ugly, the bad, the unthoughtful, the selfish, and the discardable) I found my original self again. The original didn't die she was imprisoned for safeguarding by my mind. I've always been a 'lover' I love to love other people but I couldn't love myself after my experiences. I had discovered that I didn't feel worthy of my own love.

The work of digging in, of accepting myself for who I was/who I became and who I was working to be took a long time. I had to get right with this body - I had to accept myself as a woman and a human deserving of love. And then I had to learn to love myself again. And I do love myself again - I am a good person - I love people, I am incredibly empathetic and supportive and more assertive than ever in standing for what I believe is right. I have earned the love I receive from myself and others through forgiving myself.

Now that I see the benefit of this coping mechanism I am able to employ this tactic of placing issues/feelings/etc in mental boxes until I can properly deal with them - leaving me available and productive when it counts (crisis, stressful situations, etc). After everything goes quiet I sit with my thoughts and unpack whatever boxes need to be unpacked in groups or one at a time (depending on intersections). That's why I refer to it as being 'like' a superpower - when everyone around me is crumbling I am able to stay calm, give support/listen, problem solve, and communicate to all involved wtf is going on.

This is getting really long at this point so I am going to leave it here to see if my explanation was helpful.

FireUnderTheHand · 30/09/2020 19:17

it always involved a heightened separation between body and mind, as though the inner bit that's me was watching and analysing from behind a screen

Same here - dissociation is really crazy to experience. And this dissociation paired so well (sarcasm) with the lengthy description of compartmentalization I gave above. I believe that picking through the compartmentalization is what allowed me to begin to pick away at the dissociation. Once I accepted myself, my body, the dissociation mostly dissipated into thin air but it does jump out and grab me on occasion and requires a little internal self maintenance to subside.

I worry for 'trans kids' that they are employing mechanisms they don't understand and adults are putting them on a path of destruction without exploring deeper issues.