Writing to restaurants and cafes with single-sex loos - anyone want to join me?

[williammorris]

We had a lovely meal in a local restaurant last week - four of us - so the bill was around £130 and on a day when it wasn't eat out to help out, and they were relatively quiet.

Went to the loo at the end - and the three cubicles were single-sex with the wash basins outside in quite a limited space. One of the cubicles was in a mess, with the toilet seat up.

I'm fed up with this. I have a decent disposable income and from now on, I'm boycotting all local restaurants and cafes that don't separate by sex, and I've written to this one to tell them that, spelling out why - e.g. women and teenage girls don't like dealing with sanpro with men in close proximity and the mess you inevitably get.

In future, I'll email to ask about their toilets before making a booking.

Does anyone want to join me in doing the same? I'm guessing it's often men who decide the layout without thinking about the impact, but if we start writing and asking, it may dawn on them they could lose business because of it.

Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

I totally agree that unisex fully self contained toilet facilities are fine, these are most common in small establishments and one national trust cafe we used to go to had some really nice onces

Just ask disabled people, there is no segregation by sex in most disabled facilities. I’d imagine most disabled people aren’t so much concerned at the sex of who used it before them, just that it is clean, not barricaded in with spare restaurant chairs or used as a cleaners cupboard and that they don’t have to wait 20 minutes while a parent uses the changing table for a poonami.

There are so many considerations when planning facilities in different establishments as discussed above. I think my main issue is when there is an ideological (or lazy virtue-signalling) attack on women’s facilities, particularly in locations which are inherently less safe or where people have no choice but to use them, such as hospitals and prisons.

Just ask disabled people, there is no segregation by sex in most disabled facilities. I’d imagine most disabled people aren’t so much concerned at the sex of who used it before them, just that it is clean, not barricaded in with spare restaurant chairs or used as a cleaners cupboard and that they don’t have to wait 20 minutes while a parent uses the changing table for a poonami.

It's really much much easier to just not go out. And getting more so.

serendipity

@Noneformethanks

Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

As far as I'm aware it isn't illegal. The sinks can be outside the cubicles.

It is however illegal to treat one sex less fairly than the other isn't it?

So if an establishment makes the ladies "inclusive" whilst keeping the mens as " inclusive with urinals " which of course only males can use, then effectively they have increased provision for males as they have exclusive use of the urinals and the cubicles in the mens as no women wants to use a toilet when they have to walk past urinals, and the males also have the women's.

links about regs

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1992/3004/contents/made

regulation 20

www.hse.gov.uk/contact/faqs/toilets.htm

womansplaceuk.org/gender-neutral-toilets-dont-work-for-women-2/

There was a toilet at a theatre last year which had stalls (like men's had stalls and urinals and woman's had a bunch of stalls, like a normal airport bathroom for example) and they had simply covered up the "men's" "women's" signs and made them gender neutral. Many guests were distressed by this and it really just made it so that men could pee anywhere, since having a room of urinals available to women is really NOT gender neutral.

I really do not mind when single occupancy bathrooms are gender neutral, but to have a normal public bathroom made "gender neutral" with no renovations is ridiculous.

I am not scared of a trans person using a dif gender toilet, I am pissed that men can now piss all over every toilet.

Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

OneEpisode posted this earlier

Search your local authority. Nationwide links are in here womansplaceuk.org/toilets/

Having followed that link myself, and reading the page womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/
there are different laws for eg schools, or local authorities.

But if you read the template / model letter it’s pretty comprehensive and outlines the relevant legislation for most circumstances.
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/

For eg Public Authorities, the letter recommends this:

“The desegregation of toilets may be in contravention of government guidance, given within the British Standards (British Standard, BS 6465 Part One on Sanitary installations) and the related Building Regulations which sets out the levels of male/female toilet provision required. The linked Building Regulation Part G on water and sanitation provides the basis for the application of these British Standards (DCLG, 2016).“

The linked Building Regulation quoted above is here and is 55 pages. I have scanned it. See G4 and G5 starting on page 28

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504207/BR_PDF_AD_G_2015_with_2016_amendments.pdf

There’s a difference between one horse establishments that have one loo and larger eateries/ entertainment venues where one has a reasonable expectation that they will cater to the majority clientele’s preferences in terms of facilities. I avoid the only restaurant in my town with a mixed sex loo. I don’t like powdering my nose/ putting my lipstick on watched by a strange man. You might feel otherwise- good for you.
Likewise there is no way I would be allowing my 8 year old daughter to have her first wee bit of freedom in going to a public loo on her own rather than accompanied by parent if there’s a chance she would be alone in an enclosed space with a strange man. That’s not because I hate men but because I’m a parent and I risk assess that the presence of strange men increases risk to females.
I have experience of mixed sex loos in Denmark and Sweden. My personal experience has been very long queues and dirty facilities as they seem to have just shut one of the loos and filtered everyone through one of them. Friends there hate it too. There’s no peace / time to wrap a headscarf do ritual washing or brush hair etc as it’s a case of getting in and out ASAP.

I wonder how many small businesses wading through this are going to wonder about having no toilet provision at all ? Especially since COVID has reduced the number of seats that might have tripped the threshold for provision ?

Totally agree.

Went in one the other day with DD (11) , approached a cubicle with the door open, so assumed it was empty. No there's a bloke stood there with the door open just pissing. I said "can you please close the door" and he just looked round not bothered at all, dick hanging out.

I'm sorry but I do not want my 11 year old daughter looking at adult men with their dicks out when going into a public toilet

We then went to another loo which had piss all over the seat where some disgusting filthy man couldn't aim.

I was so angry about it.

I support you OP. I’ve had some horrible experiences recently, one in a nightclub and one in a cafe where I’ve ended up in a secluded part of a building in a dead ended space with blokes pissing with cubicle doors open . Hate it

If a loo is dirty, for whatever reason, then report it. That's the only way any venue will take action. If enough people report it, then they'll need to increase/improve cleaning regime.

It's not right for other (cleaner) men to have to put up with dirty loos, and surprise, surprise, some women can be mingers and leave a mess too!

[quote ItsLateHumpty]Can someone link me the legislation that says that unisex toilets have to have the sink in the stall space and that a shared sink is illegal please.

OneEpisode posted this earlier

Search your local authority. Nationwide links are in here womansplaceuk.org/toilets/

Having followed that link myself, and reading the page womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/
there are different laws for eg schools, or local authorities.

But if you read the template / model letter it’s pretty comprehensive and outlines the relevant legislation for most circumstances.
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/27/mixed-sex-toilets-model-letter/

For eg Public Authorities, the letter recommends this:

“The desegregation of toilets may be in contravention of government guidance, given within the British Standards (British Standard, BS 6465 Part One on Sanitary installations) and the related Building Regulations which sets out the levels of male/female toilet provision required. The linked Building Regulation Part G on water and sanitation provides the basis for the application of these British Standards (DCLG, 2016).“

The linked Building Regulation quoted above is here and is 55 pages. I have scanned it. See G4 and G5 starting on page 28

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504207/BR_PDF_AD_G_2015_with_2016_amendments.pdf[/quote]
But that says may, not is? So it must be place specific?

That guidance doesn’t say that if they are unisex they MUST be all in one room it says the loos must be separate but the hand washing can be “adjacent to”.

I do NOT know where some of you are taking a piss

I understand that nightclub toilets for example might be dirty due to Drunkards

But I can’t recall many incidences of dirty toilets outside of that Environment

I must just be going to nice bogs

Noneformethanks There is no such thing as a 'unisex' toilet and thats why they are not described in the document. They are single sex or single use.

page 30;
4.15 A sanitary convenience may be provided in:
a. a self-contained room which also contains hand washing facilities;
b. in a cubicle with shared hand washing facilities located in a room containing a number of cubicles; or
c. in a self-contained room with hand washing facilities provided in an adjacent room.

Please don’t just boycott restaurants and cafes on unisex toilet provision. The hospitality industry is in dire straits.

Most disabled provisions are unisex and acceptable.

Having worked on planning in this area space is a big consideration. If providing separate single sex and accessible toilets means loosing vital trading space a business may become unviable.

Many establishments provide proper unisex facilities in a safe environment. Small cafes often only have a single toilet which is unisex / family friendly / baby-changing / accessible.

Even some larger restaurant chains have implemented unisex and they are safe, provide privacy and dignity but are necessary due to space and planning restrictions.

@Thelnebriati

Noneformethanks There is no such thing as a 'unisex' toilet and thats why they are not described in the document. They are single sex or single use.

page 30;
4.15 A sanitary convenience may be provided in:
a. a self-contained room which also contains hand washing facilities;
b. in a cubicle with shared hand washing facilities located in a room containing a number of cubicles; or
c. in a self-contained room with hand washing facilities provided in an adjacent room.

Yes - or - so the handwashing can be “in an adjacent room”

Yes - or - so the handwashing can be “in an adjacent room”

Just to add to my pp about accessable toilets, luckily I always have my husband with me, but I hate the ones opened via a radar key, as when another user comes along and opens it with a radar key, it just opens! So my poor husband has to stand holding the handle (when he is not helping me). It is totally unacceptable, will you start a campaign about them too please OP?

@Bl3ss3dm0m

Just to add to my pp about accessable toilets, luckily I always have my husband with me, but I hate the ones opened via a radar key, as when another user comes along and opens it with a radar key, it just opens! So my poor husband has to stand holding the handle (when he is not helping me). It is totally unacceptable, will you start a campaign about them too please OP?

That's awful! They should have a secondary bolt!

(But then, what if user becomes unwell? Solution needed though).

That diagram related to para 4.10? Not para 4.15?

I really have no time for this sort of nonsense about periods and women continuing to perpetuate it.

Dido, I’m glad it doesn’t bother you. But it bothers a lot of women and especially girls. And a lot of men enjoy embarrassing or intimidating women. We have a right to privacy on our own terms.

Restaurant-owners have the right to provide the minimum required by law. We have the right to tell them we’ll choose to eat in places that make better provision for their female customers.