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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

More places asking me to state my prounouns. WWYD?

182 replies

GennyCrabby · 08/08/2020 09:44

For obvious reasons I don't want to state my pronouns. I have an obviously female name and woman figure and if somebody accidentally "misgendered" me I'd be happy to correct them no hard feelings.

I'm finding in this strange year that more and more places online are asking for prounouns. Anybody else experiencing this? So far it's been a request, and I've been able to just ignore it.

The requests at the beginning of zoom calls are getting more emphatic and less like a choice Hmm. I'm working with different people so it could be that, but my sense is more and more that I'm being one of the fewer and fewer in the call(s) who don't change my name to include my pronouns I stand out more and more as GC. For somebody who is deliberately not "out" it's getting very uncomfortable.

I requested to joined a Facebook group last night. This morning I woke up to an "introduce yourself!" post that instructed (not requested) us to declare our pronouns. I've ignored that bit, but the way it was phrased it's obvious I have ignored it and i wonder if I'm going to be prompted again. If pushed I think I'll go the "my prounouns are sex based" or "oh yeah sure I'm female Smile" route or drop the admin a PM saying I am uncomfortable stating my pronouns and hope they leave it as that.

The second is more delicate, because it's a session for my hobby that I want to go to that is being run by a trans man. I'm very happy to use their preferred pronouns and don't wish in the slightest to do or say anything against them - I am after all despite what many would claim, not transphobic, I wish him peace and he's a big deal in this field, I'd love to learn from him. Equally, I feel strongly enough about my own rights and views that I just don't want to state my pronouns. Help! How on earth would you handle this delicately and with grace?

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 09/08/2020 12:54

@Durgasarrow

I would prefer not to
My pronouns are "Bartelby" and "the scrivener"
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 13:53

Why do you need to use pronouns on a Zoom call? The participants are named.

Because of like this?

2 participants out of about 20 had pronouns next to their names on screen
What was funny was that they were both used to state the opposite of what our eyes told us or grammar dictates

Except I don't see it as funny, more like that this is why pronouns are important to trans people, but not so much to people like me who might feel "meh" about pronouns or WTF at first about them, but couldn't really care less about them.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 13:58

But in the context of a conference call - you don’t need them. And if someone has decided that they wish to be referred to something other than what you’d expect - don’t they need to also realise that people forget, get confused, refuse to play this game? You can’t make people believe what you do or say the words you demand they say.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 14:02

refuse to play this game?

there you go then - I don't see trans people lives as just playing a game, presumably that's why I don't have a problem with them using their own pronouns - it's no skin off my nose. Wouldn't affect me in the slightest in a zoom conference call, but can see why they feel the need to if people think it's funny that they don't look male, or female - surely that just shows that there is a need for them.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 14:09

Now it is becoming a ‘thing’ that everyone ought to announce their pronouns and remember everyone else’s. We aren’t asked sexist on forms, it’s gender (or if you are unlucky gender ID). Why is this?

If you know someone is trans (but what definition?) then it’s your decision whether to call them by a gendered term or neutral one (in my opinion it’s not on to deliberately go out of your way to call them something that they don’t want) but can you be compelled to do this, or to believe that they have changed sex - whose comfort is the most important here?

I don’t buy into gender. It’s a nonsense made up term and most certainly not gender = sex, which is where some people are pushing the agenda. That is most definitely skin off my nose.

SerendipityJane · 09/08/2020 14:17

there you go then - I don't see trans people lives as just playing a game, presumably that's why I don't have a problem with them using their own pronouns - it's no skin off my nose.

But that's not what this thread is about (from the OP). Not a single person on this thread has suggested they have a problem with other peoples choice of pronouns.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 14:18

If you know someone is trans (but what definition?) then it’s your decision whether to call them by a gendered term or neutral one

How on earth is it up to me to tell others what they are or aren't? I'm not them. Why do I get to decide no you're not, I'll call you what I like?

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 14:21

sorry pressed too soon
(in my opinion it’s not on to deliberately go out of your way to call them something that they don’t want) but can you be compelled to do this, or to believe that they have changed sex - whose comfort is the most important here?

Whose comfort is more important? Well, that'd be theirs. Why would it even matter to me what they're called/what they use pronoun wise in this zoom call?
It's not all about me, I'm not trans, it doesn't affect me but clearly does them.

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 14:33

If I were to feel uncomfortable being told to address say, a male bodied person as ‘she’ then that could be my discomfort. Choose to say something neutral and avoid pronouns then. But if they still get upset by this then what - whose comfort and feelings is more important here? ‘Theirs’ you say - why is that? Women being told to be nice?

What would they expect me to believe and accept about them?

Fine - decide you are a he, she, they or whatever, it’s your prerogative. People will forget, be mistaken, feel uncomfortable and confused, and people need to realise this. But still - why ask people to announce theirs in a meeting? If you don’t believe in gender as a separate entity to sex then you are expected to do what then?

WeeBisom · 09/08/2020 15:10

I don't give pronouns. When I have to do pronoun circles I say my name and skip the pronouns completely. I've noticed that I'm usually the only person to do this. I've also had a few people come up asking why I didn't say my pronouns, and my response is "it's none of my business how people choose to refer to me when I'm not in the room."

northprincess · 09/08/2020 15:15

@SatanicDesk

How about a lighthearted “call me whatever you want... just call me Wink”
Yes this!
DidoLamenting · 09/08/2020 15:23

But in the context of a conference call - you don’t need them

And are you supposed to remember them afterwards?

LonginesPrime · 09/08/2020 15:38

I don't see trans people lives as just playing a game, presumably that's why I don't have a problem with them using their own pronouns - it's no skin off my nose

Whose comfort is more important? Well, that'd be theirs

Just to put it out there, not everyone finds it easy to switch pronouns neurologically because of various disabilities.

I know this thread isn't about using others' pronouns, but I do find it frustrating when people think everyone finds it as easy as they do to navigate social demands such as these.

I get the feeling that people who say "it's not hard to remember someone's pronouns" often have a neurotypical brain.

I can't ever experience anyone else's brain function, but in experiencing my own neurodivergence, it feels like someone who has a computer running the latest version of Microsoft Office (complete with 'find and replace' function for pronouns) going to someone frantically leafing through a huge roomful of piles and piles of dishevelled papers amassed over years and saying "I can't understand why you can't find the relevant document - it's not like it's hard".

SerendipityJane · 09/08/2020 15:46

@DidoLamenting

But in the context of a conference call - you don’t need them

And are you supposed to remember them afterwards?

I think it's a hate crime not to.
LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 15:49

It's not a hate crime to genuinely forget, fit goodness sake.
Refusing to because "I'm not playing that game" "I'll call you what I like" attitude maybe more so

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/08/2020 15:49

for

SerendipityJane · 09/08/2020 15:51

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

It's not a hate crime to genuinely forget, fit goodness sake. Refusing to because "I'm not playing that game" "I'll call you what I like" attitude maybe more so
I'll tell you what should be a hate crime, and that is failing to see humour Smile
midgebabe · 09/08/2020 16:08

I don't go by my name at work because it was too hard for people to remember
Even my short version gets turned into the masculine form by many none native speakers , which then leads to misgenedring
Do i scream hate crime?

SerenityNowwwww · 09/08/2020 16:15

I hope not! I had an assistant and a dept secretary who were both female but had male names (one the ‘male’ version of her name and the other - well it was a nickname. Well... ok it was Lucifer). People outside the dept assumes they were both men.

CrocusPocus · 09/08/2020 17:01

Reading with interest and also dropping by to say that Hungarian also only has one 3rd person pronoun. Everyone is /was regularly misgendered by my elderly English-speaking Hungarian family!

ListeningQuietly · 09/08/2020 17:24

my pronouns are please and thankyou

LonginesPrime · 09/08/2020 18:01

Just to add to what I said below about neurodivergence, I'm not saying that because I don't find gender identity easy to comprehend and to roll with socially, that I deliberately misgender people or tell them to fuck off because I can't cope with it.

I just stick to referring to them by their name in the third person.

Perhaps they think I am being offensive (in which case my pronouns are probably "that selfish bitch"), but no-one's complained to my face as yet.

Siameasy · 09/08/2020 18:57

Interesting about the NT presumption that it is “easy” to use opposite sex pronouns.
I’ve met a few so-called trans men through work and my brain can cope with “they” but it cannot do “he” because my brain knows that this person is female.

I have close friends and family with ADHD and suspect I have it myself and I think some individuals with ADHD for instance find it impossible to lie. After all, we teach kids not to lie don’t we?!

All the vigor directed towards being woke about gender-if only there was the same enthusiasm to “validate” and “accept” disabled people, non NT people as they are.....🤔

CharlieParley · 09/08/2020 19:40

I get the feeling that people who say "it's not hard to remember someone's pronouns" often have a neurotypical brain.

I have a neurotypical brain (or at least I think I do) but I still struggle with atypical pronoun use. I find it very difficult to remember not just names but also faces and need to have properly met with someone a good few times before I can rely on my memory providing the correct information.

This is not usually a big problem, as I can often avoid this being an issue and if it does become an issue, I explain this.

Adding an atypical pronoun to that is all but impossible for me to manage in situations where I meet people for the first few times. Writing it down makes little difference as I would need to recall that a particular person had requested a particular pronoun.

(So atypical pronouning creates an issue for me long before my stance on free speech or feminism comes into the mix. Or, as DidoLamenting pointed out, the sheer and utter rudeness of not acknowledging someone by name.)

FuriousAndFrustrated · 09/08/2020 19:55

I was just on a Zoom choir rehearsal where two participants singing bass had they/them pronouns.

The problem with this on a Zoom meeting is that other participants would have seen my eyes rolling and my "for fuck's sake" comment (thankfully we were all on mute so no-one would have heard it!)

Yesterday I was misgendered by Google translate. As my name is more typically male than female, it came up with "Furious and his family" instead of "Furious and her family" And guess what - I survived and didn't have a fit of the vapours/wasn't triggered/the world didn't end.