More places asking me to state my prounouns. WWYD?

[GennyCrabby]

For obvious reasons I don't want to state my pronouns. I have an obviously female name and woman figure and if somebody accidentally "misgendered" me I'd be happy to correct them no hard feelings.

I'm finding in this strange year that more and more places online are asking for prounouns. Anybody else experiencing this? So far it's been a request, and I've been able to just ignore it.

The requests at the beginning of zoom calls are getting more emphatic and less like a choice . I'm working with different people so it could be that, but my sense is more and more that I'm being one of the fewer and fewer in the call(s) who don't change my name to include my pronouns I stand out more and more as GC. For somebody who is deliberately not "out" it's getting very uncomfortable.

I requested to joined a Facebook group last night. This morning I woke up to an "introduce yourself!" post that instructed (not requested) us to declare our pronouns. I've ignored that bit, but the way it was phrased it's obvious I have ignored it and i wonder if I'm going to be prompted again. If pushed I think I'll go the "my prounouns are sex based" or "oh yeah sure I'm female " route or drop the admin a PM saying I am uncomfortable stating my pronouns and hope they leave it as that.

The second is more delicate, because it's a session for my hobby that I want to go to that is being run by a trans man. I'm very happy to use their preferred pronouns and don't wish in the slightest to do or say anything against them - I am after all despite what many would claim, not transphobic, I wish him peace and he's a big deal in this field, I'd love to learn from him. Equally, I feel strongly enough about my own rights and views that I just don't want to state my pronouns. Help! How on earth would you handle this delicately and with grace?

Zoom calls: "My name is Tyro, and I won't be indicating my gender identity by specifying pronouns because this requirement is contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles."

Your thing run by a transman, a quiet conversation explaining the above will probably do the trick - you don't need to mention women's rights or stereotype threat or any of it because you've got the YP backing you up.

Where Empress quoted me upthread (ta, btw) I was quoting someone else who was quoting the YP and so I'm not sure precisely which bit of the YP that was. If anyone fancies digging, we could then all opt for "Pronouns: Yogyakarta Section 4 Part 17(iii)" or whatever it happens to be.

For women, having to state pronouns usually means Miss, Ms or Miss. A man's marital status remains unknown.

So I think no pronouns are necessary, unless you want to declare this.

@EmpressJKRowlingSpartacus

Quoting from TyroSaysMeow on www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a3985745-Asked-to-put-preferred-pronouns-on-email-signature?msgid=98903985#98903985

‘There's a thread just been bumped on FWR about the Yogyakarta Principles - international best practice for accommodating trans people apparently.

"Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom, and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information from others."

Telling you to put your pronouns in your email signature is contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles.‘

That seems a slam dunk answer.

It really pisses me off though, as it would probably be assumed because of my age (early 50s) that I'm just old fashioned and out of date, when in fact I'm bisexual (identified as just a lesbian for a decade) and presented as a boy myself for a few years. It's tempting to add I have a "trans" history just to confound them.

"I don't have a preference" and I'll bet you they default to the obvious sex-based pronouns, even though apparently there's literally no way to know someone's sex or gender unless you ask them

I put me, my, mine on my slack profile at work, no one has said anything yet. Slack is quite lighthearted so I thought I'd start there.

We have also recently been strongly encouraged to do this. So now virtually everyone has (he, his) or (she, hers) after their names.

I would say I don't know I've never really thought about it so just use what you think is appropriate, or some of the other non confrontational ways listed up thread. I agree that pronouns are for the person talking not who you talk to. So when I am speaking I use I, me, mine.
If you have a PhD you could say called me Dr! Actually that is a title not a pronoun.

Just invent a religion that would prohibit it, and throw that at them. Then let them challenge you as to "you made that up" before enquiring isn't that what all religions are ?

I've got a repeat order of popcorn in for when the trans debate hits the religious debate.

If you need a hand, you can follow "Serendipityism", which is centred around Tarquin 3:3-7 ... and such as ye shall be, ye shall be as such, and none shall say ye and none shall say yea. So be the Word.

Because nobody - absolutely nobody - will check

@TyroSaysMeow

Zoom calls: "My name is Tyro, and I won't be indicating my gender identity by specifying pronouns because this requirement is contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles."

Your thing run by a transman, a quiet conversation explaining the above will probably do the trick - you don't need to mention women's rights or stereotype threat or any of it because you've got the YP backing you up.

Where Empress quoted me upthread (ta, btw) I was quoting someone else who was quoting the YP and so I'm not sure precisely which bit of the YP that was. If anyone fancies digging, we could then all opt for "Pronouns: Yogyakarta Section 4 Part 17(iii)" or whatever it happens to be.

It's Principle 6, part (f).

yogyakartaprinciples.org/principle-6/

f) Ensure the right of all persons ordinarily to choose when, to whom and how to disclose information pertaining to their sexual orientation or gender identity, and protect all persons from arbitrary or unwanted disclosure, or threat of disclosure of such information by others.

I still can't imagine why this is necessary. And still only vaguely sure of what it all means.

Call me by my name.

Serenity is that Estonian? Does any linguist on here know how many languages don't have the s/he his/hers rules?

@SerendipityJane

Just invent a religion that would prohibit it, and throw that at them. Then let them challenge you as to "you made that up" before enquiring isn't that what all religions are ?

I've got a repeat order of popcorn in for when the trans debate hits the religious debate.

If you need a hand, you can follow "Serendipityism", which is centred around Tarquin 3:3-7 ... and such as ye shall be, ye shall be as such, and none shall say ye and none shall say yea. So be the Word.

Because nobody - absolutely nobody - will check

Brilliant!

Farsi - also I think Thai and Finnish. How do they cope? 😱

@crosstalk

Serenity is that Estonian? Does any linguist on here know how many languages don't have the s/he his/hers rules?

?????

I just made up some bollocks on the spot. What we should all do.

I'm not trolling, but a lot of people are really overthinking this. You don't expose nonsense but going along with it. That is exactly how religions work. You expose it by simply reflecting nonsense back. Or that's how I've rolled all my too-long life.

Shame I couldn’t pass as Persian or I could have a lot of fun.

He or she? Sorry I never understood that - can you explain what these are used for? Oh when someone is not there and you discuss them? So which do I use when? Oh - male or female but you can’t tell which? How? Oh - how they feel? So it’s not sex then? Oh it is but it isn’t? Ahhh - it’s if they feel male or female? How does that work then? Jesus, you lot are pretty caveman level of development if you can’t tell a doe from a deer...

Actually I did hear a radio piece about a Persian poet/writer who was so over privileged and spoiled sounding, banging on how backward London was because you could tell what sex people were, unlike in Germany where it was just all so gender fluid and progressive. I can just imagine her as a child in the lack of the limo with mummy and daddy, never having to worry about covering her hair or going to mixed sexual parties as the Middle and upper classes are pretty much insulated from grim day to day life have the luxury of such first world issues. lorks I think her mum was a philosophy lecturer too!

Shame I couldn’t pass as Persian or I could have a lot of fun.

Why ever not ? Who is going to challenge you ? And more importantly, on what basis ?

I'll say it again. Too much overthinking here. It's impossible - on so many levels - to make 1+1=3. It cannot be done. In the same way there is no rational, or logical or practical answer to the pronoun problem. (And indeed the whole attempt to redefine biology). Not in this universe. And (if mathematicians are correct) not in any universe. No matter how many there are, 1+1 will never and can never equal anything but 2.

Face with that, the only way you can respond is in kind. With more bullshit.

The old HHGTTG line about man being so clever he proves black is white and then gets killed on a zebra crossing is about the level of debate the pronoun pack have reached and deserve in reply.

You can’t really challenge anyone now these days can you? Of course you do get Iranians with a range of skin and eye colour... maybe🤔

I would just say you prefer not to for identity reasons.

If you feel you need to go along with it and not challenge, you could maybe just say ‘I don’t mind what pronouns you use for me’.
I like that one because it can’t be used against you, but the spirit is is there. And it keeps your privacy intact on your ‘gender identity status’ and on other political beliefs like being GC.

@GennyCrabby

Well obviously I won't be doing that. This individual doesn't post that crap. I want a peaceful mutually respectful engagement, not a fight.

My advice has basically been repeated throughout the thread and you've been open to it, so I'm not sure why you needed to be so arsey here.

We have been asked to show solidarity with DigitalPride by showing our pronouns on zoom calls to normalise the practice for those that have chosen different pronouns.
Sigh.
Of course I am not going to do so, and message is from diversity lead so no obligation or pressure (for now). But it means there is no obvious space to have a debate about why it isnt ‘just being kind’ and ‘no big deal’.
It gives me the absolute RAGE. I do not believe people can change sex, therefore using pronouns of opposite sex is nonsensical and feeding into a delusion that I do not think is healthy. I am not willing to partake in that game.
Non-binary identity is just another way of saying
‘Please dont see me as male or female’, but human evolution tends to make that quite an easy distinction to make so hard to quash (and certainly not by being told ‘call me they/them’).

Getting rid of sexed pronouns in general is fine, especially if the default is generally decided by sexist thought processes (assuming a doctor = male; nurse = female etc), but using ‘they’ does make speech less clear as harder to distinguish who is being talked about, as same as plural. Maybe we just need to adopt another convention for (singular) she or he. Written as s/he, pronounced ‘she-he’ in speech. So no need to make up xi etc rubbish. And no need to force it through, just let it permeate into language.

We need to move away from misgendering being seen as such a terrible thing anyway. I have 7 siblings so went through most of my childhood being called the wrong name of either sex (and quite often the cat’s name thrown in too!)

In Bislama, "hemi" (pr. hemmy) means he, she or it depending on context. Mi, or mi mi, is me. Ting blong mi is mine. Yumi (you+me) is we. Yu, yufala or yutufala is you. They is ol, or olfala (from all) so indisputably plural! I don't think mis-pronouning will ever be an issue.

Perhaps we should all just learn Bislama or at least insist on its pronouns? It's the easiest language I've ever tackled. 😊

Mi (I, me), ting blong mi (mine)

I would say "I'll use 'me' for myself and everyone else can refer to me as 'Your Highness'"
Note: This may be frowned upon if you're in court.

In Mandarin there's "ta" for he, she or it, although the written character is different for male and female.

We have been asked to show solidarity with DigitalPride by showing our pronouns on zoom calls to normalise the practice for those that have chosen different pronouns

Do parents no longer use the ticking off Who's she? The cat's mother?

I can't imagine any circumstances in a Zoom call, where all the participants' names are onscreen, where it would not be unspeakably rude to refer to someone by their pronoun rather than their name.