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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We must not fetishise debate"

218 replies

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 09:57

A line from an article by Nadia Whittome, MP. She was so pleased with it that she also tweeted it.

t.co/cr8b8QfOn0?amp=1

When did our MPs become this stupid?

"We must not fetishise debate"
OP posts:
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Fanthorpe · 24/07/2020 14:04

TheReal is she getting confused about ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’?

Because up until very recently you were forced to leave if you were openly gay, it was only through ‘debate’ that we moved forward!

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 14:06

No, it doesn't make sense, but according to this thread she is also confusing UK and US law.

mobile.twitter.com/anyabike/status/1286639840189132800

WeeBisom · 24/07/2020 14:12

The state of Maine televised their debates on gay marriage and it was highly influential in changing the public’s mind. Members of the public got three minutes to argue for or against gay marriage. The pro side was filled with pleas for fairness, stories of people who couldn’t see loved ones in hospital due to not being next of kin, rational discourse on how marriage wasn’t purely for procreation. The anti side was, to put it bluntly, irrational. It came down to “the bible says so” or “it’s disgusting.” The anti side couldn’t muster any decent points against gay marriage.

What’s interesting about this is the public saw this and responded. They recognised that one side made decent arguments about the current unjust system. Open debate and discussion was welcomed because it was instrumental in getting people to support gay marriage. It was the same with the women’s rights movements - people respond and sympathise with deep unfairness and injustice.

It’s striking how in just ten years or so debate has now been discredited. And to be perfectly cynical about this, I think it’s because the trans rights movement is hopeless. They aren’t on the side of rationality- if anything they are like the evangelicals clutching their Bibles. It is very, very difficult to persuade the public that biological sex isn’t real (which they DO claim, despite protestations to the contrary) or that males can turn into women by having a certain thought in their head. It’s a hard sell, and the trans side knows it. Hence no debate.

They don’t even really have fairness on their side. Once the issues are laid out and explained it’s deeply unfair for women to lose their spaces - see how unhappy most people are with trans women in female sports, for example.

The trans rights movement can’t rely on open discussion or debate because quite simply they will lose. So what they have done instead is create a climate where even just discussing this stuff is bigoted and evil.

Fanthorpe · 24/07/2020 14:21

That’s interesting, I didn’t know that!

What interests me is that the trans idea relies on us to believe an article of faith, that sex is not fixed, the idea of a masculine or feminine soul, (rather than the scientific explanation of male and female) which to me sounds rather like the belief system used in a religion.

FloralBunting · 24/07/2020 14:32

The banning of lesbian and gay people from the military wasn't a 'debate'. It was a rule based on presumptions and prejudice.

It was only open debate that meant that the ban was overturned because those who made the case about the unfairness of the ban won the argument.

Whittome, you are, quite simply, standing on the same side as the people who would have refused to even consider that the ban was wrong, you cotton headed ninnymuggins.

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 14:33

What interests me is that the trans idea relies on us to believe an article of faith, that sex is not fixed, the idea of a masculine or feminine soul, (rather than the scientific explanation of male and female) which to me sounds rather like the belief system used in a religion.

That’s because it is nothing more than a belief system. Welcome to Queer Theory.

James Lindsay has done some excellent work dissecting these ideas.

newdiscourses.com/tftw-queer-theory/

ChattyLion · 24/07/2020 14:36

FGS her way of fending off comments and questions: ‘Don’t spark a right wing feeding frenzy’ is so massively disingenuous. It’s not just her in Labour so I wouldn’t wish to single her out for that view tbh. People of her political views in Labour have been hassling women members out of the Labour Party just for having the women-focused views on this issue. It’s clearly not a ‘right wing’ issue. It’s a feminist issue. The heartbreaking thing for many lifelong Labour voters like me is how Labour are utterly selling out women.

crumpet · 24/07/2020 14:37

It’s a nonsense.

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 14:38

She has just accused Liz Truss of fanning the flames of hate and states that there has been a 40 percent increase in attacks on trans people. Debate is hateful. There must be compliance with TRA demands and anyone who questions this is a bigot. This is a recurrent theme. It is an existential threat to freedom of speech.

JanMeyer · 24/07/2020 14:38

"I would challenge anyone to sit and listen to the story of any trans person without feeling anything but shock and compassion. You will have trouble finding any trans person who doesn’t tell you a backstory including some level of alienation, loss of family, bullying, persecution, difficulties with accessing appropriate healthcare and worse."

You could say similar things about disabled people, with poverty and the nightmare of benefits added on. But apparently us disabled people aren't special or oppressed enough for the labour party to pay any attention to these days. You know, an actual vulnerable minority that could do with more of a voice.

Collidascope · 24/07/2020 14:40

Interesting she brings in people's fundamental rights and equal status (though I'm not aware that it is a fundamental right to be able to force everyone else to accept your view of yourself and to make them act accordingly.)

This argument could easily go for abortion too. Say in a few years we get a government who doesn't believe in abortion, who claim that even debating it calls into question the fundamental right of the baby (I know, fetus really) to life, and so it's now going to be illegal. I presume she'd want debate then? So I wonder who gets to choose which topics are worthy of debate or not?

Reminds me of Daenerys at the end of season 8 Game of Thrones. She's envisaging the perfect new world she's going to force in everyone, and Jon asks, "What about all the other people who think they know what's right?" and she responds smugly, "They don't get to choose."

Nadia might be young but she's old enough to know what a bloody dictatorship is and that a few people having their feelings hurt is a small price to pay for debate and democracy.

Durgasarrow · 24/07/2020 14:41

Orwell fucking wept.

Durgasarrow · 24/07/2020 14:44

How does one know that one has the correct opinions sorted out? Is there any way to check?

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 14:44

Don’t spark a right wing feeding frenzy

Chatty
I think the aim of this is to actually claim freedom of speech and debate are right wing. Hence dispensing with both can be enthusiastically promoted by an MP who clearly believes she is morally righteous. It is another recurrent theme.

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 14:48

Reminds me of Daenerys at the end of season 8 Game of Thrones. She's envisaging the perfect new world she's going to force in everyone, and Jon asks, "What about all the other people who think they know what's right?" and she responds smugly, "They don't get to choose."

Yes! The totalitarian Daenerys whose unwavering conviction of her moral righteousness makes her a monster....

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 14:50

Yes! The totalitarian Daenerys whose unwavering conviction of her moral righteousness makes her a monster....

Join me and we’ll build a better world or refuse, and die.

testing987654321 · 24/07/2020 14:57

Not rtft so apologies if this point has been made. Nottingham has been safe Labour for quite a few years now, hence why a foolish inexperienced person could win.

BaronessBollyKnickers · 24/07/2020 14:58

Funny choice of word "fetishise" considering who she's talking about.

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 15:02

@TheRealMcKenna

Yes! The totalitarian Daenerys whose unwavering conviction of her moral righteousness makes her a monster....

Join me and we’ll build a better world or refuse, and die.

The choices are always so binary....
merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:07

and states that there has been a 40 percent increase in attacks on trans people

Very difficult to verify without any objective definition of trans.

Kit19 · 24/07/2020 15:14

Personally I can’t fail to feel shock & compassion when I read the stories of Transwidows but then I’m the sort of boring old feminist who thinks women are more important in feminism than men 🙄

merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:23

Interesting she brings in people's fundamental rights and equal status (though I'm not aware that it is a fundamental right to be able to force everyone else to accept your view of yourself and to make them act accordingly.)

There seems to be a wide spread belief that there is a human right to 'define your identity', but this concept of identity doesn't seem to be recognised either in the UN declaration of human rights or EU law, and nobody has explained how that right would interact with any other part of the law.

Fundamentally, people like Whittome don't seem to comprehend that when your right to education/participation in government/own property etc. etc. is threatened; the last thing anyone cares about is your subjective concept of your own identity. People are deprived of rights regardless of their identity.

She also doesn't seem to appreciate that all humans have rights, even the ones without a sympathetic back story.

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 15:25

"While I understand that the honourable member for Nottingham East does not like to 'fetishise debate', I must point out that..."

I really hope so, merrymouse.

Also, I love "think-shaming - top-notch work from bishop*.

So many clever people on Mumsnet. So many stupid people representing us in parliament.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 24/07/2020 15:27

Not rtft so apologies if this point has been made. Nottingham has been safe Labour for quite a few years now, hence why a foolish inexperienced person could win.

Not only that, but having ditched the previous 'Blairite' Labour MP, the requirement was for somebody who would be loyal at a time when it was becoming increasingly obvious that the leader was a liability.

stormsarebrilliant · 24/07/2020 15:36

But that example she gives is an example of how debate led to people getting their rights recognised. Confused

She makes no sense. Literally no sense.

Surely the only way her view works, is where the world she wants already exists. Otherwise you would need debate to create that world...