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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"We must not fetishise debate"

218 replies

RoyalCorgi · 24/07/2020 09:57

A line from an article by Nadia Whittome, MP. She was so pleased with it that she also tweeted it.

t.co/cr8b8QfOn0?amp=1

When did our MPs become this stupid?

"We must not fetishise debate"
OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Winesalot · 24/07/2020 10:28

The Baroness has invited her for a chat. Maybe she might learn some history on womens and children’s rights. And maybe this MP will learn that use of the word hysterical never goes down well with a group of people who used to be locked away for ‘hysteria’ by males.

BovaryX · 24/07/2020 10:30

her arrogance is enormous and her respect for people is tiny

Nail on head. Unfortunately, this is becoming a definitional characteristic of many politicos on the left. And it also explains the contemptuous attitude to voters when yet another election result causes shock and awe on Twitter...

SquishySquirmy · 24/07/2020 10:30

I have no problem with daft statements like "women are less intelligent than men" being "up for debate".
Because there are plenty of arguments and evidence that show women are as intelligent as men. When people argue for "no debate" it us usually because they are not able to defend their own position, so must resort to silencing the opposite position.

Michelleoftheresistance · 24/07/2020 10:31

I would challenge anyone to sit and listen to the story of any trans person without feeling anything but shock and compassion. You will have trouble finding any trans person who doesn’t tell you a backstory including some level of alienation, loss of family, bullying, persecution, difficulties with accessing appropriate healthcare and worse

No, that one doesn't fly any more. It's called 'weaponizing trauma' by the faction this muppet supports; it's forbidden. They've said so, especially loudly and endlessly to JK Rowling.

And obviously the lobby aren't such flaming hypocrites that they would expect female people to abide by their decree but not abide by it themselves, and still expect to be taken seriously.

GCAcademic · 24/07/2020 10:33

Marvellous. An opposition MP proudly pronouncing that her vision for the country is a totalitarian state. Eternal Tory government it is, then.

ThatsHowWeRowl · 24/07/2020 10:34

Yeah why does she think that people wouldn't want to debate the idea that women are less intelligent than men? Bring it on! (Although maybe don't use Nadia as a case study! Grin)

ThePurported · 24/07/2020 10:34

Oh yes, she is the one who said that WPUK organisers (!) should be educated or expelled if they don't respond to education.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3838596-Nadia-Whittome-MP

Winesalot · 24/07/2020 10:37

She quotes ‘ “Your belief is a belief. My existence is a reality.” ‘

Excellent. This sentiment works for every individual on the planet.

Floisme · 24/07/2020 10:40

Marvellous. An opposition MP proudly pronouncing that her vision for the country is a totalitarian state.
Yup. I was a Labour party member for years, even voted for them in December, but I hope her constituents read this and vote her out.

ThatsHowWeRowl · 24/07/2020 10:42

The thing is as well, they never ever answer actual questions about this issue. It's always just rhetoric about how 'trans people are the most marginalised', 'their lives are in danger', 'just want to be themselves', 'it's the same as the homophobia of the 80s' - none of it has any substance whatsoever.

How about they answer some actual questions:

Can you define 'woman' in a non circular way?

Can you define 'transwoman'?

At what objective point, upon which policy and law can be made, does a person cease to become 'cis' and become 'trans'?

98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males. Do you believe that in a society where any male can self identify as a woman, predatory males will not take advantage of this in some way? Why do you think this, given the patterns of behaviour that we see in predatory males when they want to access vulnerable people?

Why should one group of people have the right to legally falsify their birth certificate with absolutely no gatekeeping whatsoever, when no other group has this right?

Do you think that a male rapist should be allowed into a female prison on the basis that he 'feels like a woman' - oh wait... You already answered that one and everyone was horrified by the response!

Loveinatimeofcovid · 24/07/2020 10:45

If there was ever an argument for a return to aristocracy this is it. I know that this is the best political system we’ve managed to date but we really need to work on improving it somehow. At least give the poor fuckers some basic philosophy classes before letting them begin their official parliamentary duties or something.

ChattyLion · 24/07/2020 10:49

Of course it’s not flaming hypocrisy Hmm
It’s just that some trauma is more trauma-y than other trauma. Also that some people’s reaction to trauma is more deserving of attention, action and public resources than other people’s trauma is. Do keep up Michelle!

RufustheRowlingReindeer · 24/07/2020 10:54

@KaronAVyrus

Aren’t MPs supposed to debate stuff? Why is she talking herself out of a job?
To be honest it explains A LOT about the current state of our politics
AnyOldPrion · 24/07/2020 10:57

You will have trouble finding any trans person who doesn’t tell you a backstory including some level of alienation, loss of family, bullying, persecution, difficulties with accessing appropriate healthcare and worse

Even if this is true, being bullied doesn’t make you the opposite sex. Indeed it seems highly likely that in many cases, the bullying might be the cause of the gender dysphoria/“transness” and not the result of it.
People that have been bullied terribly deserve everything they demand is not the best mantra ever...

Thisismytimetoshine · 24/07/2020 11:03

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Gronky · 24/07/2020 11:09

If there was ever an argument for a return to aristocracy this is it.

I think she is arguing for a return to an aristocracy, of sorts. It would seem that only certain people have the correct brains required to produce 'appropriate' thoughts and everyone else should shut up and fund their execution.

Imnobody4 · 24/07/2020 11:11

This is the following tweet. Priceless, couldn't put it better myself.

"We must not fetishise debate"
Justhadathought · 24/07/2020 11:12

Wow! Straight out of the totalitarian playbook. Debate just gets in the way of the inevitable great sweep of history.

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 24/07/2020 11:12

@NonnyMouse1337

Should there be some sort of examination that people need to pass before they can qualify to become an MP? Like a basic grasp of democratic principles, values of liberty and critical thinking? Confused
Yes.
Justhadathought · 24/07/2020 11:17

Just started reading Hannah Arendt's 'The Origins of Totalitarianism'.
These sort of no debate sentiments are exactly what is referenced - in relation to Nazism and Stalinism.

Arendt also mentions how the intelligentsia got caught up in it too - seeing in totalitarianism a possible solution to the radical change they desired to see.

wellbehavedwomen · 24/07/2020 11:21

Oh for God's sake. She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation of the actual issues at stake.

Nobody decent thinks trans people pose any threat over and above anyone else. They pose no LESS threat, either. We don't exclude men from women's spaces because all are a threat. We exclude because some are a threat, which is a statistical reality, as is the fact that most women are less physically strong than most men. We have separate spaces for safety, dignity and protection.

You can't change sex. Women have distinct and discrete provision, away from males, for a reason. Sex determines criminal behaviour, not gender identity. Trans men pose very little threat to women. Trans women pose the same threat as any other male. Women need and have a right to our own definitions and our own provision based on our biological sex, because the harms and discrimination are based on that biological sex. Someone's personal sense of gender identity has no relevance to that fact, and their hurt that they aren't being validated does not matter more than our own safety and dignity and comfort. Women matter too.

The EHRC admit that the sex protections under the Equality Act are differently applied, depending on whether or not someone has a GRC.

A trans person is protected from sex discrimination on the basis of their legal sex. This means that a trans woman who does not hold a GRC and is therefore legally male would be treated as male for the purposes of the sex discrimination provisions, and a trans woman with a GRC would be treated as female. The sex discrimination exceptions in the Equality Act therefore apply differently to a trans person with a GRC or without a GRC.

Without one, the comparator is birth sex, so there needs to be no additional reason to refuse access to a women only space. It's not discrimination on grounds of gender reassignment, because all males are excluded, not solely those who are transitioned or transitioning. If there is a GRC, the comparator is the sex that that GRC states, and then the only way to retain women only provision is to invoke the exceptions under gender reassignment, which is a far higher bar.

That isn't what the EHRC want to be the law, which is why they had to be pressured into issuing guidance that this was the case - their prior guidance was far more in line with Stonewall's preferred version. If Stonewall's version were in fact the law, Stonewall would never have bothered to campaign for GRA reform at all, nor to have the exceptions removed. They have done and are doing because yes, it does affect single sex provision. Which they want erased altogether, along with any definition of 'woman' that is determined by sex.

This woman either does not know this - which is troubling - or she is misrepresenting the facts - which is even more troubling. Though not as troubling as the EHRC claiming a GRC has no impact recently, when that runs contra to their own official guidance.

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 24/07/2020 11:24

What is the point of Parliament if it isn't debate? They've been 'fetishising' debate for hundreds of years.

zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:25

I am always a tad suspicious of these young rising star MPs, it is only possible to move up the ranks so quickly by connecting well with the powers that be and saying the right things to get the support of influential organizations. She sounds like a Stonewall mouthpiece.

zanahoria · 24/07/2020 11:26

She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation

Or maybe plain thick

TheRealMcKenna · 24/07/2020 11:29

Oh for God's sake. She's so embarrassingly dishonest in her presentation of the actual issues at stake.

She’s embarrassingly dishonest full stop.

I remember her ‘care home dismissal‘ during lockdown. She slagged off the home owners for locking all the PPE in a cupboard and limiting access.

Not being funny, but any sensible care home owner would have done the same in the circumstances.

She strikes me as immature and attention seeking and with very limited critical thinking skills. I hope Starmer locks her in the PPE cupboard during the next election campaign or she’ll do untold damage.