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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
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Cascade220 · 09/07/2020 14:03

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:13

Thank you for the link. I'll have a read.

OP posts:
alexk3 · 09/07/2020 16:26

I'm trans ftm, it's both 1. & 2. really because of gender dysphoria - both are signs of the condition.

I don't think all men/women have feelings specific to sex but I think all men/women would be unhappy if they had the body of the opposite sex? Like if you (assuming you are a woman, apologies if not) woke up with a male body you would probably hate it and miss the female traits if that makes sense? It's hard to explain but when I look at myself I just think that I look like a fit man haha.

I'm not treated any better post-social transition - if anything I've been treated worse by men - but it's worth it for me. For me so far 'living as a man' is just a change in pronouns (I already had a unisex name), other than that everything is really the same as it was.

Not about steroetypes at all, actually I find the whole idea of 'boys toys = you're a boy' pretty annoying (as do most trans people!) I suppose some trans people try and wear clothes more typical of their desired sex (for example) but that can either be because that's what they enjoy, or for the sake of passing which alleviates dysphoria.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/07/2020 16:32

woke up with a male body you would probably hate it and miss the female traits if that makes sense

I don't think this is a helpful thought experiment - I think waking up in a different body of the same sex would be just as disorienting as waking up in one of the opposite sex - I don't think it's the sex of the body that would cause the issues, more that it's suddenly a body different to the one you spent the last X years growing up in.

If I'd been born in a male body, I'd feel about it just the same way I do about my female body having been born in that.

Sudden, impossible, magical changes just can't be used as a comparison to a life in a body.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 16:41

No maybe not, but it's the best way I can explain it. I imagine you wouldn't to have a male body, but I do and that's osmething I have in common with men. I think people don't really get it because unless it's your experience then it is almost impossible to understand. I can't explain it any better than 'I feel like a man because I do' - it's nothing to do with stereotypes because I look and act the same as I did when I was a lesbian. I just want a male body and to be called he/him and Alexander, obviously not a usual female desire.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 16:42

Ah I mean *wouldn't want to

TinselAngel · 09/07/2020 16:45

I think you'd be better asking this on a forum where there's more people who identify as trans.

Collidascope · 09/07/2020 16:47

alexk3
Do you mind me asking when that feeling of wanting to be male kicked in? Was it early childhood or teenage years or later? Just curious.

Deliriumoftheendless · 09/07/2020 16:48

Alexk3
This will come across more harshly than it would if I were speaking to you, which is the nature of written communication- but can you elaborate on what it is about a male body that makes you want that, rather than a female body? I’m not putting down your feelings but is it that you don’t like your female body or that a man’s body is more how you would see yourself?

I hope that makes sense trying not to give you any grief or break talk guidelines, but I’m curious.

JaJaDingDong · 09/07/2020 16:54

I don't think all men/women have feelings specific to sex but I think all men/women would be unhappy if they had the body of the opposite sex?

I disagree. I don't really think about whether I'm a man or a woman most of the time, unless I'm due a smear test or something. I just get on with life. I think most people would be the same, which is why we find the whole thing quite confusing.

I am a woman, but I don't "feel like a woman". I just feel like me.

I'd quite enjoy being able to wee standing up though.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/07/2020 16:55

I imagine you wouldn't to have a male body, but I do and that's osmething I have in common with men

I don't have a problem with male bodies - my sons have them, my partner has one, I imagine if I'd been born with one I'd feel roughly the same as they do - what with it being all I could know. I wouldn't say that I wouldn't want a male body though - it's not a disgusting or off-putting thought.

I can certainly see the advantage in a penis, and not being the one to do all the female stuff like growing the children and having periods. The boobs are a tad inconvenient a lot of the time too, and being a bit taller would be nice, as would being able to put on muscle more easily. I guess having a very hairy face is a downer, and the amount of time they seem to need to poo isn't so great, and balding in winter does mean you get a very cold head without a hat.

highame · 09/07/2020 16:55

I'm in the feminists forum right?

EweSurname · 09/07/2020 16:56

Yes treestumps, the disorientation would be from being in a different body, not that it was male.

I’m Asian and if I woke up and was suddenly another ethnicity, I’d find that strange in the same way, namely because I was in a different body! That wouldn’t make me cis-Asian or cis-racial though.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 16:57

sorry I literally have no idea how to use this site/reply to people I just lurk to see GC ideas haha so sorry I don't get how to reply to people!

@Collidascope

Aye it's fine I don't mind. Not sure really, I was never a masculine child - I lived with my nan and she really wants me to be girly so I was always dressed up! I went to a single sex school and didn't know any boys until I went to uni so I didn't think about gender much because everyone in my life was female really. I was semi-ok in puberty, didn't like my body but didn't think about it too much, got a girlfriend at 18 and that made me realise how uncomfortable I was in my body, couldn't do anything NSFW without feeling so uncomfortable and out of it even though I'm pretty confident really. Started thinking about it more after that and my dysphoria just got worse and worse, annoyingly. Would love to be happy being gay but can't get over the dysphoria which is not fun.

@Deliriumoftheendless

Again no worries, honestly I have no idea! As I said before I wish I could just get over it - mostly because it would save me so much money haha - but just one of them things I suppose. It's both though, I don't like my more female areas - chest, waist etc. and wish they were more male. I'm pretty happy like with my face but that's only because it's really masculine anyway - I pass pretty much 100% of the time pre-testosterone anyway so love that.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 17:01

@JaJaDingDong

Well yeah, most people won't think about gender at all, I only think about it because I'm uncomfortable with what my gender was 'supposed' to be. If I didn't have gender dyspohoria I imagine I wouldn't think about it at all.

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines & @EweSurname

It was really an off-hand comment that I wasn't expecting to be quite so focused on. I'm sure that yes if you had always been male it would have been fine for you. The idea is that most women probably like their secondary sex characteristics and would probably then feel uncomfortable if they one day did not have them any more... Of course it's a not-real example but such is the nature of things really.

Duchessofealing · 09/07/2020 17:08

@alexk3 I think you’ve been really brave answering, and I want to say thank you as I wondered about this too. Like @JaJaDingDong I never think of myself in sex or gender terms - I’m just me. This was a really interesting viewpoint - thank you for sharing.

Collidascope · 09/07/2020 17:08

Started thinking about it more after that and my dysphoria just got worse and worse, annoyingly. Would love to be happy being gay but can't get over the dysphoria which is not fun

Oh, I'm sorry, that must be tough.
It sounds like it kicked in when you actually had to start thinking about your body cos of relationship stuff, is that right? Again, please feel free to ignore me if I'm asking too personal questions!

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 17:09

@Duchessofealing

no worries! just bored in lockown like everyone - it is so hard to get if it's not your life, so as long as people are nice about it I don't mind offering my perspective on anything

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/07/2020 17:11

The idea is that most women probably like their secondary sex characteristics and would probably then feel uncomfortable if they one day did not have them any more...

I'm focussing on it because it's an assumption I just don't think is the case, and I especially don't think it's specific to a person's sex.

Yes, for example, women who have mastectomies for breast cancer can feel like their bodies aren't their own any more, it's also common for pregnant women, with the sudden changes. But I similarly think that people who have a leg amputated for example can have trouble coming to terms with that - ie. I don't think it's sex related, it's body image related, and any change to that body, whether to sex characteristics or not, would make people uncomfortable/distressed. If I woke up tomorrow 5'8" with A cups I'd be pretty bloody discombobulated!

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/07/2020 17:13

Sorry - I didn't complete the thought...

This is why I don't think it's a good thought experiment, or a helpful explanation - because sex isn't so special - it would be the same for any body part.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 17:13

@Collidascope

no worries! yeah I think so, there'd been stuff before that - I'd always hated the odd occasion I was called Alexandra, didn't like how I looked etc. .But yeah being really close with someone else in that way made me so uncomfortable, like I probably will stay single until I can get surgery (even though I'd love a girlfriend again) because of how grim it is. I'm not really sure whether going to uni and meeting men my age maybe triggered something as well? Honestly no idea though! Just sort of happened, annoyingly.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 17:17

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

You can not think it's accurate and that's fine! I agree with your examples yes of course any sudden change would be weird. I just said it because the OP asked if I thought I had any feelings in common with men, and I think I have in common a desire for a male body and that is a desire women don't usually have in the same way. Sure you might think having a penis might be useful, but you probably don't feel like something is missing on your body, or wear a prosthetic 24/7 because the feeling of something being missing makes you really uncomfortable.

Collidascope · 09/07/2020 17:19

I'm not really sure whether going to uni and meeting men my age maybe triggered something as well?

Yeah, I thought that when you said most people in your life had been female. Sounds tough.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 17:22

@Collidascope

Yeah it's not great! Because there's not much understanding of where dysphoria comes from it's kind of like a chicken and egg thing (in my opinion) - am I trans because of some womb hormone issue (as some places think) and that gave me gender dysphoria, or am I predisposed to dysphoria like depresion or some other thing, and that makes me trans? All very confusing anyway!

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/07/2020 17:24

I just said it because the OP asked if I thought I had any feelings in common with men, and I think I have in common a desire for a male body and that is a desire women don't usually have in the same way.

Understood - but I don't think men desire a male body, they just have one. Women don't desire a female body, they just have one. Desiring a body of the opposite sex is a distinct thing - I don't think it's something in common with people of the desired sex - they don't feel they should have a penis, they just have one. They'd miss it if it was taken away, but that's different from feeling they should have something they never had in the first place if you see what I mean.

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