A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

I mean sort of but if you asked a man 'would you rather have a female body' they'd probably say no, that's what I mean. Them missing having a penis is similar to the way I feel really, if I'm not packing (using a prosthetic) then I miss that. I don't think that's what makes me a man anyway so it's sort of not the point.

[quote alexk3]@Collidascope

Yeah it's not great! Because there's not much understanding of where dysphoria comes from it's kind of like a chicken and egg thing (in my opinion) - am I trans because of some womb hormone issue (as some places think) and that gave me gender dysphoria, or am I predisposed to dysphoria like depresion or some other thing, and that makes me trans? All very confusing anyway![/quote]
A bit off topic but I was reading up on BIID a couple of weeks ago - you know the condition where people feel so, so strongly that they ought to be missing an arm or a leg or something that they resort to putting their leg on a railway track or putting it in dry ice so doctors have to amputate.
(I think they'd found a link to the parietal lobe in the brain, the same part that is affected by strokes.)
And then there are anorexics who weigh 5 or 6 stone and think they're too big.
And then general body dysmorphia which I had all through my teens.
It's a mess!

I don't think all men/women have feelings specific to sex but I think all men/women would be unhappy if they had the body of the opposite sex?

This idea just seems odd to me. Assuming I could choose (rather than unexpectedly waking up with a different body, which of course would be disconcerting) I’m pretty sure I’d choose a male body. Stronger, no post-pregnancy wetting myself when I run, no more menopausal symptoms, deeper voice, bigger lung capacity, testosterone confidence, automatic respect. Who wouldn’t want that?

In fact I remember an essay where it was posited that a non-trans person, offered a million dollars to transition, would choose not to do so, and I thought it was a very ignorant and arrogant assumption. I’m pretty sure I would take testosterone, and have a mastectomy if that came with a shedload of cash. I’m just not that attached to my body. I mean it functions, more or less, and for that I’m grateful, but aesthetically I don’t care.

I guess, when I was having children I wouldn’t have swapped... and it seems some female transitioners feel the same as despite changing their bodies aesthetically, they still choose to get pregnant... so then the only difference between me and one of them is that my female body doesn’t cause me enough distress to want to change it.

@Collidascope

yeah I find that really interesting but don't really know anything about it. I think it's really different to something like anorexia though, a lot of my friends have struggled with it and that's more about seeing things differently to how they are - they think they're fat when they're not. I see my body exactly as it is, I just think it shouldn't be that way.

@AnyOldPrion

Ok, maybe not all men/women then! But yeah it is about the distress really, I don't really understand how ftm's can want to get pregnant because if that happened to me I would probably kill myself from the dysphoria, but I guess maybe they don't feel the same way. I think that taking testosterone and having top surgery might affect you more than you think, just because of my experience with dysphoria, but then maybe not! I'm glad you don't have to think about gender a lot because it's really not something I want to be thinking about, I'd much rather be happy as gay and not have to spend a lot of money / have to come out to people.

I could understand a women more easily thinking their female body is wrong than the male body because the female body goes through so much more changes than the male body...the female form is pretty similar to the male until about age 10,

@midgebabe

I'm not sure, I think anyone male or female can be uncomfortable with puberty. Boys have more of a vocal change, more hair and get taller than girls of a similar age so I think it can happen to anyone really.

thank you for replying to this thread, Alex, it's really interesting (and puzzling)
I'm noticing I feel more sympathetic to your situation and can empathise more- at least I can remember how hard it is to process puberty as a female- but I also think it's because I don't feel any threat from you - which I would feel, probably from a transwoman. But it would be interesting if a transwoman was able to be as honest and straightforward as you have been

I lived with my nan and she really wants me to be girly so I was always dressed up!

Fast moving thread, and fascinating, thanks OP and alexk3.

The above phrase leapt out at me. My lesbian daughter made it clear from as soon as she could express it, that she didn’t want to wear anything girly, and I told anyone who ever tried to suggest she must, that they should stop.

But your description of feeling really uncomfortable with sexual relations (I think that’s what you meant, apologies if not) is something else I relate to.

Thanks again for taking the time to explain.

actually from reading your words I feel kinship, like you are one of us really (sorry if you don't like that?)

I appreciate your posts alex and I’m sorry for what you’ve been through.

@alexk3 thank you so much for being so open. It's really interesting.

I agree with you on puberty. Puberty pretty much IS dysphoria, I think, for everyone. But you went through that okay, from what you say? So it's not a reaction to that, is it.

I have to admit that I don't understand it. I don't have a strong sense of being a woman, so much as I do sisterhood and solidarity with other women. I hope, again, that this isn't offensive but I can't help but include you in that, instinctively. I respect your choices and I would always use your pronouns etc. because it doesn't really matter what I understand: it's your life and what makes you happiest. So, do you feel that solidarity with men, yourself? Is it about feeling your body is wrong, or your sex class community is?

This second one is a really prosaic question, and apologies for that, but you comment that men aren't very nice to you (which sadly doesn't amaze me - you are challenging gender norms, and also going to be on the end of misogyny as well). Do you feel safe using male only spaces, and if not, do you feel comfortable using women only, or does that exacerbate your dysphoria? I've been wanting there to be unisex, women's, and men's provison (as in some swimming pools now) which obviously caters to families, and also trans people. Would you prefer that, or would you rather use one of the single sex ones, despite the drawbacks there?

One thing that I do wonder: you say you feel like a man. But what do you mean by that? I suppose I wonder how you know what being a man feels like - what you mean by it, and what that means to you?

Please don't answer anything that makes you uncomfortable. I appreciate your willingness to engage and I really don't want to cause you any distress or discomfort. It's just hard to understand, as an outsider.

@StillWeRise

you're welcome! I just want to give people here a little bit of a different perspective to their usual one (and also I have nothing better to do!). I get that it can be harder to empathise with trans women but really they have the same struggles with their body/gender that I do. They are as able as I am to be honest and straightforward I just don't think here is the best place for anyone to be open - and the views of some posters towards trans people are usually more hurtful to trans women even if they are not supposed to be hurtful - toilet debates etc. I'm glad you feel that way, trans people are just people haha - I know you know that but it's easy for anyone to see a group of people as a hivemind and not just a lot of individuals (I do it with GC people as well so mean that in the kindest way possible).

@AnyOldPrion

That's good about your daughter and how you reacted, I love that. My nan still really wants me to be feminine - she offered me £100 the other day to grow my hair out - and I'm not out to her yet because it will really upset her. Yeah I'm sure a lot of people feel that way just for me it was definitely based in gender and not something else :). No worries!

So what would you say if you were offered treatment for your dysphoria, in the way that anorexic people are, rather than being offered chemicals and surgery to help you change sex?

I don't particularly like having big breasts, or being short, and when I was young I used to sleep on my tummy in the hope it would stop my breasts from growing, but in the end, most of us just get on with it and accept the body we're in, even if we don't like it.

I still don't know how "I don't like my body" becomes "I want to change sex/gender".

Much of what trans people with dysphoria/dysmorphia say makes a lot of sense to me, because I, too, have a sense of self which may be at odds with what others perceive of me.

I identify as autistic. I have never been assessed for ASD. For all I know I may be completely neurotypical. But I find my life is so much easier if I think of myself as autistic. My mental health is better, too.

Where I diverge from trans people, though, is that my self ID is all about me, not about anybody else. I do not expect access to services provided for people with ASD, nor to any accommodations made for them to enable them to access work and leisure.

I struggle with the idea that what one thinks of oneself should in any way be imposed upon others.

@Jellyeggs

thank you! no worries :)

@wellbehavedwomen

no worries, glad you find it interesting!

Yeah I was semi-ok in puberty, honestly I have quite bad depression so my memory is horrific but I think I was broadly ok? Not sure though.

It's ok if it wasn't my life I wouldn't understand it at all either so I get that! To be honest I don't love being grouped in with women but I know you're doing it in a nice way so it's alright. I feel literally no solidarity with men, if anything I have to try and not pre-judge men in a bad way haha. It's 100% about my body really, and just like an innate thing? I can't explain it because it just isn't an explainable thing.

I use men's toilets, I've only had bad experiences with men on nights out drinking outside of that I feel fine in mens toilets but then I pass quite well and I'm meant to be startig hrt soon so I'm not too worried. Using women's toilets makes me really uncomfortable, partly because I feel like I'd make them uncomfortable and it makes me really dysphoric. I would use a men's toilet if there was a unisex still, probably, though would maybe use either if there was the option.

I can't explain feeling like a man at all, sorry. I'm thinking about it right now and I don't even know if 'I feel like a man' is an accurate thing to say. Like all of you I just feel like me, really. But if I look at myself and think 'do I look like a man' and decide that I do, that makes me really happy? But I don't know why.

I know it's hard to understand honestly I've been questioning for ages because the whole thing is just non-sensical really! Thanks for being nice though

@JaJaDingDong

I don't think I can be counselled out of being trans, to be honest. It's not that I hate women/am transitioning because I think things would be easier for me as a man, because I don't really. I'm sure things will be easier when I pass 100% because unfortunately thats the way of the world but that is in no way my motivation. It's also not that I need to be taught self-love or anything because outside of gender-stuff I am pretty confident in myself? So I just don't see that it would ever work... So no, I would rather be on hormones and get surgery: I can't see how any amount of therapy would make me not want to transition.

I'm glad that you've been able to come to terms with that. I just can't 'get on with it' in the same way really. I was ill recently - don't think it was covid but I had the shortness of breath - so I couldn't bind for a week and it was just awful mentally. I bind like 14 hours a day ish because otherwise I'd have to just stay sat in one position because if I feel anything on my chest I just feel horrific really.

I suppose when everything you hate about your body is sex-based, and you also hate having a gendered name & pronouns they all add up to 'I want to change sex'

@LurkingPoster

That's really interesting and I hope one day you are able to be assessed if that's what you want. I suppose if you found out that you were diagnosably (I don't know if that's the right word, apologies) autistic then you would be then entitled to those provisions though, and they would be yours to claim.

I suppose it depends what you mean by imposed. For pronouns and things like that it's just a courtesy, you're not really acting at a detriment to yourself by addressing people how they wish to be addressed. I understand the fears about trans people using the bathrooms they wish to and things like that, but I'm generally quite optimistic and think that really 99% of trans people just want to go about their lives. I know it's hard though. With sports and that I think there needs to be more research but other than that I don't think that trans people living as their gender is too much of an imposition most of the time.

Alexk3
Thanks for coming here and answering everyone. I hope you are feeling welcome, it's really interesting to read your replies.

Hi Alex,

When your transition is complete, would you hope to attract straight or lesbian women? Would you consider a relationship with another trans man, or a trans woman?

I imagine that kind of thing will possibly become a bit of a minefield, so I’m curious about your hopes and expectations there.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

Honestly things like this really make me want to just stop replying which seems a shame but anyway. I don't want a lesbian partner, my ex was straight so there's that. I haven't had loads of counselling because I don't think it works for me, and I know I'm not homophobic - I literally just said I would love to be happy being gay?

I'm curious about whether dysphoria usually starts from 'push'
ie not wanting the physical sexual characteristics and gender roles you are born into. And the way out of that is transitioning.

Or whether it is pull
ie 'I miss and want the organs and gender roles of the other sex'.

Maybe that's not answerable, maybe it's both or neither.

@aliasundercover

thank you! was feeling more welcome before I was called homophobic but most people are really nice :)

@Chatons

straight or bi women, my ex decided she was straight - we didn't break up because I'm trans though, there was other reasons. I wouldn't date a trans man because I'm not into men. I might date a trans woman, probably not someone pre-srs but if they had had that surgery I would be open to it.

@alexk3 thank you, that sort of makes sense in not being my (our, I think) experience, if that makes any sense to you!

Again, I apologise if these are insensitive questions. Ignore anything that's upsetting, and please forgive anything crass. The aim is to understand, and it's obviously not your job to enable that, if it's negative for you.

I think the reason there's incomprehension is that I don't think most women feel so much womanly in their bodies (though I'm sure some do) as one of a group of other women - and of course, physically vulnerable to biologically male people. So it sounds like you're saying that you don't really identify with either men or women, so much as feel like you have a body that's wrong, and should be male? I don't don't have any way of sort of feeling empathy with that specifically, but I do understand what you are saying about that being essential to you, and empathise with how hard that must have been to come to terms with. It must have felt like something was slightly awry all the time.

I don't want to extrapolate your feeling that way to all trans people, but actually if that is the norm, it explains what confuses me about a lot of transwomen on here (in fairness, the ones on here tend to be the ones who want a row, so probably not representative). They don't seem to have any interest in understanding women's concerns about what it means for us as a group. They don't seem to identify with so much as they do as. But if that's because it's all about the body feeling incredibly wrong to them, and our refusal to accept their sense of their gender hurtful accordingly, it makes the anger more understandable as well. And it's always baffled me because the one thing I do like about being a woman is the company of other women. And accordingly if something made a group of women feel awkward, I'd bow out. I wouldn't insist on joining a lesbians group, or a new mothers group, for instance, so I never got why that solidarity was missing - but from what you say, it's a visceral sense of being in the wrongly sexed body, rather than identifying with a group who share your mind's idea of what your sex should be?

Women have always been nicer to me and more reliable, on the whole (clear exceptions in both sexes!) than men. You sound like you share that sense that men are not necessarily safe bets, in fact.

I'm glad you aren't offended. It is meant nicely (even if it's infuriating, I'm sorry if so).

There is one thing that does worry me a bit - again, please don't feel in any way obligated to respond. Quite a lot of detransitioners say that the surgery etc didn't actually help the dysphoria, and it remained afterwards. And the hormones do carry quite serious health risks. I appreciate what you say about the fertility side being irrelevant to you, but how much therapeutic input would you be interested in having, to explore if there are ways you could live as a man without those? This is possibly really ignorant, and you may have had loads of therapy already (I note you were desperately unhappy in adolescence; I was too, and it was hell, so I hope you DID have therapy then, and of a high standard), or conversely be very sure that you don't have any way to benefit. And I do appreciate that treatment will ease dysphoria in some. I just worry that without any meaningful follow up, it's hard to know who is helped, and who isn't.

Again, I realise you're just one person and these are huge questions, so do feel free to ignore them if they are uncomfortable, or indeed if you just can't be arsed!

@similarminimer

I think it's probably both? Or it differs for different people. For me I think it was push - not gender roles but what I said before about body/my old name. But then it went from just push to a bit of both? Probably is different for everyone though.