A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Oh Christ, Alex, you’re only a teenager?

Please take things slowly. What seems the only course to you at 19 may not (to put it mildly) be the choice you want to be stuck with at 50.

You are obviously bright. You come across as a lovely and thoughtful person. Think for a bit longer about this. Life throws enough at people without deliberately compromising your health and limiting your options when newly adult.

Meanwhile, though, good luck! Did you say you’re at uni? I hope the disruption of lockdown hasn’t been too bad for you, and that your family have coped ok.

It’s all a bit regressive. The only way out of the whole mess is to abolish gender as a concept entirely. Who cares what you wear or call yourself or how you behave. Once we abolish gender, it just becomes a choice in terms of surgical or hormonal changes as a treatment of last resort to deal with body dysmorphia. Or fashion. Gender dysphoria wouldn’t exist as there would be nothing to ‘match’. (And less Mermaidsesque homophobia about boy toys).
Build third mixed spaces where any single sex facilities exist (prisons, changing rooms, rape crisis, shelters, sports etc). Those who are happy to use mixed sex spaces are free to do so, those who prefer sex segregation or where it counts have their safe space.
And I say this as someone who went by George and was considering a legal challenge against the Royal Marines for refusing me because of my lack of a penis.
Gender is a box. It is used to control and is actively damaging.
Sadly with the number of mental health or neuro-divergent co-morbids, girls who identify as trans are not getting enough support prior to transition and believe it is the answer to their discomfort. The detransition wave is unfortunately building.
Wherever you go, there’ll you’ll be, and all that.
That said, as a woman, taking T feels like the best buzz of the 80s. It’s a hormone. Any woman taking it is going to feel strong confident and powerful. It’s a shame that this is read as ‘rightness’ instead of as a known side effect. Even the most performatively ‘feminine’ woman would feel like a don on T. Drugs do dat.
I also felt like the boss if I got mistaken for a dude. It’s internalized. Women are lesser.
These days I have given birth to three children and am just a boring middle aged woman. Wanting to be something you aren’t is pretty ordinary as a teen/ twenty-something.
Alex, give yourself a chance before you anything irreversible.

WellBehavedWomen Thank you very much for all that information - it's particularly great to have so much of it sourced. To be fair, Alex did say that it wasn't an area of expertise so I'm sure it's added a lot to the thinking of everyone on here.

MadBadDaddy Complaint acknowledged but I can't promise you it won't happen again!

I agree gender's a prison, but what Alex is talking about is a bit different, I think. That's dysphoria, which is about the body and not how to perform femininity or masculinity? Though the lawn cutting etc is a bit on the fence there. It's tricky, because gender roles do come into it diagnostically too. How do you 'live as a member of the opposite sex' other than language? I know some women who would probably fit that societal criteria sans pronouns. But they're clear they're very happy women.

I do wish we had a society that just allowed people to be every bit as masculine or feminine as they are comfortable being, within their sex. I'm sure we would still have some trans people, but I am doubtful we'd have so many. I think it would be interesting to see research on the sorts of societies that have third genders (usually males, no, though?) and to see how the societies themselves were structured. Is it more common where gender roles are rigid?

(Alex, one of the issues is that trans men pose no threat to anyone, so all should be pretty well supportive - whether that comes as gentle challenge or affirmation is the question, mainly. Other people's rights aren't engaged much. That's not so with trans women, because of the biology involved. I don't want you to feel got at there, because it is down to sex, not gender, and how that determines risk to women.)

@SpiritOfEnquiry

WellBehavedWomen Thank you very much for all that information - it's particularly great to have so much of it sourced. To be fair, Alex did say that it wasn't an area of expertise so I'm sure it's added a lot to the thinking of everyone on here.

That post re. prisons wasn't really aimed at Alex (sorry Alex!) - it was because I think, as feminists, we've all been brought up thinking that the patterns aren't that different, and I saw that belief from a few of the comments here. It was a shock to me to learn quite how starkly different they were.

I was one of the people who signed to get a trans woman moved to a women's jail a few years ago. I just didn't know. Now I do, I feel really strongly that the information needs to be out there, because very, very vulnerable women suffer if it isn't. I think the same knowledge gap exists around sport, actually. I had no idea quite how great the gulf in performance between elite men and elite women really was until a couple of years ago. I mean, I'd have had no clue that Venus and Serena Williams were absolutely thrashed, one after the other, by a man ranked 203 in the world! I'd have assumed maybe 5th or 6th, and they'd start to have a shot. Embarrassing, but true.

I think most people are kind and mean well, and without the facts, that isn't going to mean the kindness is directed in the most fact-based way. Mine wasn't, at least.

I read up to about 10pm last night, and have jumped to the end.

Reading Alex's responses I have a couple of comments.

I am a woman in my 50s. Aged about 19 I wondered if I was "really" male. I too went to an all girls school and was not aware of gender stereotypes until an adult. Once aware, I felt disorientated because they were so alien to me,

On the thought experiment, I would quite like to wake up in a male body, but it would not be how I imagine it. That would take mental energy to adjust to.

Having had children and have my body change through that, I have experienced (like many women) having to readjust to a new shape. These things do happen throughout life.

Finally, the comment which made me jump to the end was "fully pass" being mentioned several times. The odd person may superficially pass but I would be surprised if anyone fully passes, it's definitely not an idea to base decisions on.

Right I honestly do not know enough about anything like that but will give it a go. I think for non-violent offences if the trans women has veen transitiioning prior to the offence then they would probably fare better in a woman's prison. I just looked at some stats BBC and in 2019 11 trans women were assaulted in male prisons (and one carried out an assault which is obviously awful) so it's clearly not very safe for them. I think it's very much case-by-case really. If it's a violent/sexual offence I'd be very hesitant to house them with women but then I know nothing about it

These are people who do know about the differences between male and female prisoners/ offending patterns:
Fairplay For Women
Sex attacks: MPs must investigate risks of transgender prisoners
13th May 2019
(extract)
The report is just the latest example of the risks raised by allowing criminals with male bodies to be housed in female prisons with vulnerable women.

FPFW earlier last year revealed that up to half of male-born trans prisoners are likely to be sex offenders or violent criminals.

The group has urged the Justice Select Committee to hold a special hearing on transgender prisoners, as part of its current inquiry on the prison system. (continues)

Andrea Albutt, president of the Prison Governors Association said in June 2018: “I have seen women feeling very threatened by transgender prisoners’ presence. Women prisoners are very vulnerable.”

Frances Crook of the Howard League, a prison reform campaign, has said that she is worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

The British Psychological Society has said this: “psychologists working with forensic patients are aware of a number of cases where men convicted of sex crimes have falsely claimed to be transgender females for a number of reasons”

Dr James Barrett of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists has said this: “It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case. There are, to those of us who actually interview the prisoners, in fact very many reasons why people might pretend this” (continues)

fairplayforwomen.com/sex-attacks-mps-must-investigate-risks-of-transgender-prisoners/

Many males commit violent & sexual crimes against women or children which are not reported or prosecuted successfully.
In the UK there is a current crisis of failing to prosecute rape (a male specific crime)
Female prisoners have experienced very high levels of male violence/sexual abuse.

Independent
December 2017
'More than half of female prisoners are victims of domestic violence, new research shows
Exclusive: Charity calls for urgent guidance on dealing with female offenders as it emerges many are victims of crimes much graver than those they have been convicted of'
(extract)
"Women in prison in England and Wales are often victims of much more serious offences than the ones they have been convicted of, a charity has warned.

A report published today shows 57 per cent of female inmates have been victims of domestic violence, while 53 per cent have experienced emotional, physical or sexual abuse as a child.

The figures do not tell the whole story, according to by Prison Reform Trust.

Both figures, taken from Ministry of Justice data, are likely to be an underestimate because many women fear disclosing abuse" (continues)
www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/female-prisoners-women-prison-domestic-violence-victims-more-than-half-prison-reform-trust-report-a8089841.html

Have you considered the impact on vulnerable women in prison who having being victim of male violence/abuse are then locked in with male offenders?

Finally, the comment which made me jump to the end was "fully pass" being mentioned several times. The odd person may superficially pass but I would be surprised if anyone fully passes, it's definitely not an idea to base decisions on.

This ^^

Dr Katie Alcock (Developmental Psycology Lancaster University) article explains how humans recognise sex from a very early age:

'But HOW CAN YOU TELL'
(extract)
"So, how do we tell whether someone is male or female? Well, we are very good at it and — like a lot of human cognitive skills — we base it on a number of cues (pieces of information). In fact, we’re very good at it from the time we are tiny babies." (continues)

medium.com/@katieja/but-how-can-you-tell-7901324d0919

I had a period of gender confusion in my mid twenties. I didn't really talk about it with anyone, but it was on my mind almost non stop, and caused me a fair bit of distress at the time.

I only really broke out of it when I realised everything I was thinking was rooted in sexism.
The main source of my confusion was the fact that I didn't "feel" like a woman, and I didn't "feel" like anything.
Nobody has been able (trans or otherwise) to explain to me what your gender is supposed to feel like. In the end I just realised that I think gender is like religion. It's something that some people have and believe in strongly, but I do not have even a little bit.

It's been interesting reading @alexk3 posts but I still don't get it. I don't think I ever will.

ItsLateHumpty
Harsh, but fair.

Sadly it looks like I spoke too soon about this thread. Of course a long attitude-corrective rant about prison stats and the fundamentals of sex-based oppression relates to OPs questions, because trans-women. Normal service has been resumed. This is the main reason I stayed out of it. I would have just hastened the end of a lovely moment.

Also, on the subject of being trans, Alex has said just what I would have said, so I didn't so I didn't feel like I could add much. His first couple of posts nailed it beautifully, IMO (bit mansplainy but not too bad ). and the discussion has been fascinating.

Sadly it looks like I spoke too soon about this thread. Of course a long attitude-corrective rant

It kind of is though, it's just walls and screeds from usual, was an interesting thread with different voices

Hopefully Alex will understand better
Patronising, much?

Anyone interested in understanding better the reality of male pattern offending in males who identify as transgender should watch this piece of work by Kate Coleman.
It documents the crimes of male offenders who have been convicted as women in the UK.

It's unsurprising on the feminist board of a parenting website that women are concerned about the impact of male violence/abuse of women and children.

"These are not our crimes"

@MadBadDaddy

ItsLateHumpty Harsh, but fair.

Sadly it looks like I spoke too soon about this thread. Of course a long attitude-corrective rant about prison stats and the fundamentals of sex-based oppression relates to OPs questions, because trans-women. Normal service has been resumed. This is the main reason I stayed out of it. I would have just hastened the end of a lovely moment.

Also, on the subject of being trans, Alex has said just what I would have said, so I didn't so I didn't feel like I could add much. His first couple of posts nailed it beautifully, IMO (bit mansplainy but not too bad ). and the discussion has been fascinating.

Several posts were claiming women were as dangerous as men. That's not true. The facts are clear.

I participated in the discussion earlier with Alex,and agree it was really interesting. That doesn't mean false statements that harm women can't be challenged.

Thank you for this interesting discussion to everyone. WhatsNew and R0wan I appreciate your detailed posts and the implications that these have for society are urgent and they inform my political views.

It's been interesting reading @alexk3 posts but I still don't get it. I don't think I ever will.

Listening to older lesbians who are gender non-conforming about their experiences when younger is recommended.

Peach Yoghurt
'Why I hated my female body'

Of course feminists are going to be worried about taking a large group of underprivileged women who have suffered physical, domestic and sexual abuse at rates far larger than the general female population, and may well have ongoing mental health problems and PSTD as a result, and imprisoning them with sex offenders with penises.

It would be a funny sort of feminism if we didn't worry about that.

Likewise, when feminists see otherwise healthy young women suffering from dysphoria about their sexed bodies in a porn-saturated, sexually violent society in which rape is effectively decriminalised (de facto, albeit not de jure), then watch those women decide that the solution to their confusion and pain lies not with society but with their own bodies, thus internalising the misogyny they're surrounded by, up to the extent of having mutilating surgery.

Again, it would be a funny sort of feminism if we didn't worry about those sorts of things.

And when women have fought so hard to have women's sport recognised and taken seriously and funded properly - suddenly when they're on the brink of success, to have the whole category of women's sports taken away from them and replaced with unisex sports.

Once again, it would be a funny sort of feminism if we didn't worry about such things.

I wondered Alex whether you think it’s helpful or appropriate for society or politics to conflate LGB and T issues together?

It’s a bit like the single-sex spaces argument for me, I feel people should be free to organise or socialise together as a group, if they want based, on their common experiences.

I would describe LGB (same sex attracted) communities and transgender communities (coalescing around gender identity) as distinct from each other.
And so for example the recent news stories about banning conversion therapies for LGB people make perfect sense to me (because same sex attraction is a normal part of life, conversion is damaging and wrong).
But then banning conversion therapies for T-identifying people, if this meant that they will only be able to access ‘affirmation only no questions allowed’ types of support, feels like a disservice and not a healthy approach.

Obviously even social transition won’t be right for everyone, let alone physical. Consequences of transition can include permanent physical changes and permanent removal of natural physical capacities. And yet we see a proportion of young adults detransitioning.

We also know that the profile of female people seeking transition tends to over-represent some groups for whom talking therapies will be an important part of dealing with their needs or experiences, and a gender-related social or physical transition process may be at best be beside the point or at worst may induce new problems for them. Let alone failing to get rid of the original distress for which they sought help.

There are other examples of course but I wondered if as a T-identifying person, you felt there are differences between these groups from your perspective?

I took ages writing a post, but then worried that it was too long and deleted it.

Now I'm annoyed at myself for deleting it.

Job done, I guess.

Thankyou for being so open and honest on here Alex, it's been very interesting to read your perspective.

A few things that struck me reading were;

The trajectory that you have taken to identity as trans is quite different to that of younger trans kids who are much more dependent on stereotypes.

Having said that I honestly can't see why mowing the lawn is at all masculine. All the men I know would be sitting in front of the TV watching football and scratching their balls while their wives/girlfriends cut the grass. I guess there is a class aspect to gender stereotypes and expectations?

You say your ex girlfriend is straight so I'm wondering if part of the dysphoria is wanting to be sexually attractive to those you are presumably attracted to i.e. straight females? Having seen many of the high profile transmen on youtube with their boy band good looks, I imagine I would have found them very attractive in my younger years (I'm a straight female). I very much doubt that attraction would have lasted long though as I find older transmen very unattractive. It's not so obvious when they appear solo on a screen but when they are in a group with other men, they come across as very low status, undesirable men. The short statue, petite features, effeminate mannerisms, premature aging and early balding is the complete opposite to my definition of a stud. Also (sorry to be crude) I would never find a surgically created phallus appealing as there is no way it would look, act or behave like the real thing.

The 'passing' thing also rings alarm bells for me as I wonder if transmen ever get properly accepted into male communities? It's not just about what they look like, it's all those subtler signs. I've got sons and could never see them going off on a stag do or having a 'lads night out' with a transman. Yes they are quite blokey and enjoy the company of men's men.

Regarding the whole innate gender identity thing I honestly still do not believe I have one. I am a woman because that is what the mirror tells me I am, in just the same way that it tells me I'm old. I've never liked my breasts because for the majority of the time they just get in the way and are an inconvenience. I'd rather not have two useless sacks of flesh hanging off me and hate the feel of them so much that I have always slept with a bra on. Luckily I am only an A/B cup so I put up with them and they have been very useful for breast feeding my children as well as being a signifier of my sex for attracting men.

I hope I haven't said anything to offend you as that is not my intention. You are obviously a bright young person and if you were one of my children my advice would be to get out in the world and meet lots of people, particularly men and all ages. You seem to have had so little contact with them during your formative years that I find it hard to understand how you can identify as something you know so little about.