A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

[quote alexk3]@Fearandsurprise

alright lol police bloody hell. my sincerest apologises[/quote]
Just want to say how amazing you have handled the lions den that is Mumsnet. I despair at some of the GC things I read on here, but you've been so honest and forthcoming, and handled yourself brilliantly. Let's hope you've changed a few minds!

Best of luck for your future surgeries and you find happiness in your body!

@startalovetrain

not sure if you’re 100% being serious because I probably shouldn’t be taking the piss quite so much currently but thank you if you are! Really hope so and thanks again

I wish Alex well, as have many of the feminists here, but it's unlikely that personal testimony re an indescribable sense of wanting to be a man will change many minds in regard to feminist accounts of gender.

Anyone fancy popping over to twitter and telling anyone using the term “deadnaming” it’s shitty behaviour as they’re not actually dead people?

Anyone?

@ContentiousOne

I wish Alex well, as have many of the feminists here, but it's unlikely that personal testimony re an indescribable sense of wanting to be a man will change many minds in regard to feminist accounts of gender.

No indeed.

In the absence of any explanation or indeed definition of a large part, Alex's tangential account rather corroborates gender critical feminism than not.

And I too wish you well Alex. Apart from anything else, some of the comments have been fascinating. And yes to Gina Rippon's bloody monkeys!

If anyone imagines they are unaffected by socialisation and gender stereotyping, Invisible Women by Caroline Criado-Perez, demonstrates how virtually every single aspect of our lives and society has men as the default. Automatically, deliberately, pervasively.

@datun

thanks. I’ve read it, still don’t think I’m very impacted lol

If you were nursing on a COVID ward, like someone I know, where the PPE is designed for the average male body,so it doesn't fit you properly, it might become clearer.

An inmate cross sex identification doesn't make that mask fit any better.

Every time a bio female is prescribed medication, she is impacted by the fact that almost all medications have been trialled on male bodies. A cross sex ID doesn't change that either.

Nor does the way your car is designed to crash, how your city is planned, how public transport is run or a million other things.

It's wilfully ignorant to think there's someway to identify out of the systemic prioritising of the male body, if you were born female.

Datun
Yes, the section about differences in how heart attacks present in women and men was particularly sobering.

[quote alexk3]@datun

thanks. I’ve read it, still don’t think I’m very impacted lol[/quote]
I think her point was that it's not a choice. Seat belts, height of steering wheels, heart attack symptoms, autism diagnoses, work wear, etc, etc. Amatically default to male.

Impacts are visible, measurable.

Sexism is the reason and starts in the womb. Studies showing a kicking baby boy described as a little footballer and a girl as 'uh oh, trouble!'

Or not being born at all, of course. Just because the foetus is female.

It's estimated there are 117 million 'missing' females because of sexism.

*automatically

Not referring to Alex specifically, but the trope of 'not like other girls' does some heavy lifting in denial of sexism.

A trans woman's been told to go away and pontificate elsewhere.
Funny how a male person didn't interact with the women here in good faith. I asked about if MadBadDaddy had any concerns about young men transitioning and about MBD'a life of having children and a family before transitioning and was ignored in favour of snarky comments.

A trans man has been told he's just too young to know better
By women who have struggled with feelings similar to the young person, who want to advise caution before major changes to body parts and dangerous medication. What horrible women, caring about young people. Also interesting how Alex did engage in good faith, and an interesting conversation was had.

Yup, women on a feminism board on a parenting site give a pontificating male short thrift and a young person the benefit of their experience and somehow this is a bad thing?

Alex at 19, you still have a lot of living ahead of you. Humans change over the years, time shapes us and we try our best to shape our time, that’s just the way of it.
That is not said to make any judgement of you and your current feelings which you are quite reasonably and rationally looking to find a good solution to in the here and now.

You said earlier this thread was ‘free therapy’ but of course we’re just random people not therapists on here, so I do hope you are accessing some professional emotional support at the moment, as much as it’s nice to chat.

In the spirit of ‘just chatting’ then: you said you are about to start taking hormones in a few weeks. Then why not before you do, go over to the resource page of Detrans network if you haven’t already done that. It might be informative or at least interesting to read what some other people who have been in your shoes have thought about all this stuff: www.detransadv.com/resources

Alex - thanks for sharing and for being so open and for doing your best to explain something that is very abstract and nuanced and personal.

I found your explanation of how nice it is being perceived as male by onlookers fascinating. Is it fair to say that if you feel you are male but in the wrong body and you adopt the social norms of being a man and people see you as male then social norms are helping you? Can you imagine a culture without those social norms? Or a culture with less pronounced differences between how the different sexes present?

I am thinking of a time when being male meant you could be more flamboyant in your dress (think of Bowie) or when Mao tried to enforce gender neutral dress in China. How do you think you would feel in a culture that was less divided and there was more fluidity and men and women presented themselves in more varied ways or in ways that were so similar you could not tell them apart that easily.

On the race identify I think this is an interesting subject. I watched the Netflix documentary about the lady presenting as a black woman - can't remember her name. It was very interesting. Identity is complex including racial identity.

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

I said shitty behaviour. Not that they were a shitty person.

Just for the record, that's not any better.

@SpartacusAutisticus

I have yet to see any convincing science that says gender is innate in any way.

Like most feminists I conceptualise gender as an oppressive hierarchy, which places masculinity embodied by male humans as higher order then femininity embodied by female humans. I don't believe that femininity and masculinity are innate. I am not a believer in biological determinism.

Arguing that gender is innate cements the notion that female humans are subordinate to male humans because femininity is subordinate to masculinity. It suggests that female humans are by nature feminine, and that those who aren't are dysfunctional.

Questions of oppression and subordination are a next challengeable layer which some have added to gendered behaviours - I don't consider this value structure as inherent to gendered differences and agree it should be called out at every opportunity.

eg Value for more care based jobs should be at least equal to construction jobs, and pay should reflect that.

And there are little things we can all do every day to call that out. For eg. I am always amazed how many people seem to value men's tennis over women's - when to my mind the women's tennis usually offers a far more enjoyable viewing experience, with extended rallies, rather than the more likely 'blink and you miss it' Ace/ smash nature of the men's game. So I would always pay to see a women's match over a man's and encourage my friends as well.

I also think socialisation is hugely important and clearly contributes to this issue, so for eg, one of the places where I work we have created targets and are trying really hard to attract females into traditionally thought of male vocational courses - eg vehicle mechanics, and males into traditionally thought of female vocational courses - hair, makeup etc. We have gone over the intake figures for previous years and we know the courses which are imbalanced in terms of attracting males or females and have resolved to address that as far as possible (with resistance from some lecturers I might add!)

But the reason I posted those links (and the 2nd one is better for exploring possible mechanisms behind this issue, in terms of in utero exposure to testosterone and subsequent brain organisation, processing of spatial information and attentional response difference between males and females) is to suggest that it is not all purely socialisation. As the argument in this thread has been along those lines at times and it is used to undermine the trans experience. I wanted to point out that I don't think it's that simple, and there's actually good evidence that it's not that simple.

Alex. It has been very interesting to read your responses. It was very much like going down memory lane for me when you discuss how you feel about your body. At 50, giving birth and living with my female body, I think I didn’t reach the stage until I was about 40 when I looked back and was grateful for the experiences of being me, female body and all. I would have jumped at the chance, even in my 20s, to have a fully functional male body instead and know I have quite a number of friends who feel the same.

Regardless, I have tried to live my Authentic life by resisting any stereotype being applied to me that I was not comfortable to accept.

I laugh at people like Alex Drummond for ‘widening the female bandwidth’ because even at 16 I was pulling my own car apart, always played sports as one of the boys and built things and then went and put on a skirt. Even now I plaster a wall, dig out a stump, or repair the fence and then go and put on make up and a dress and serve up a dinner party. When Alex Drummond has done is simply discover that women don’t fit in the box they obviously fully believed and participated pushing women into.

Good luck Alex. Like many others on this thread, I hope that you have had plenty of mental health support that you can continue.

Lemonade you really cannot see your own behaviour, can you? At least it is consistent on every thread.

That is ‘At 50, looking back at giving birth etc’. Certainly, I did not give birth at 50.

I wish Alex well, as have many of the feminists here, but it's unlikely that personal testimony re an indescribable sense of wanting to be a man will change many minds in regard to feminist accounts of gender.

Yes, it's been interesting to hear what Alex has to say, and I do accept there is such a thing as gender dysphoria. Where we differ is that I don't believe in some innate gender identity that we all have, I think gender dysphoria is a psychological condition (I'm quite prepared to believe it may have a biological element) and extra care should be taken when assessing children and young people to make sure no comorbid mental health issues are missed. Especially when the costs of both transitioning wrongly, and missing other mental health problems, are so high.

I also think gender dysphoria to a level that transitioning physically is any way helpful is fairly rare, and other things are responsible for people's perceived transgender identity in many cases. Not directing that at Alex.

testing987654321

Mathew 7:6

Good faith my arse

My generation solved the 'I don't want no female curves' issue by anorexia, I have the very strong impression your generation has discovered T as a little helper in that department

A couple of the young women at the Manchester detranstioners event reported that they had gone from suffering from anorexia straight into identifying as 'trans'; and that the bodily dysphoric feelings were exactly the same in both cases. And shockingly, no professional involved gender services had ever explored the link between the two, due to the approach of 'positive affirmation' and 'no questions'.

But the reason I posted those links ... is to suggest that it is not all purely socialisation. As the argument in this thread has been along those lines at times and it is used to undermine the trans experience. I wanted to point out that I don't think it's that simple, and there's actually good evidence that it's not that simple.

Nobody is 'trying to undermine the trans experience'. What we're trying to explain is that you can't fit people's personalities neatly into male and female boxes, because there is too much overlap between them. Whether the differences are due to socialisation or hormones or something else is not the point.

The point is that anyone can have any interests regardless of our sex, and I don't really understand why some people want to analyse this to try to discover whether there is something unusual or abnormal about a woman who enjoys stereotypically male activities.

And shockingly, no professional involved gender services had ever explored the link between the two, due to the approach of 'positive affirmation' and 'no questions'.

Yes, this kind of thing is very concerning.