A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Thank you so much for Alex for replying. I just wanted to say that I understand what you mean when you say women would be uncomfortable if they woke up and had a male body. Maybe I’m the odd one out here, but there’s no way I would want a male body and to be treated like a man, regardless of the benefits, I don’t think I would ever be able to get used to that, not just because it’s strange, but because I know that I’m a woman, I like looking like a woman, dressing like a woman, having a woman’s body, I don’t have anything in common with most men and all of my friends are women, as a lesbian I’ve never had a close relationship with a man other than family members, I just don’t really click with them like I do women and we don’t tend to have many shared interests. So I know if I was suddenly given a male body I could never ever happily live as a man because there’s nothing about being a man that I relate to or desire, I would also be extremely feminine as I’m not naturally masculine in the slightest, so would probably have to “perform” to “fit in” with most men. I suspect this is how trans people feel about their own sex?

Elsie. I find that harder to imagine than Alex's position ....this thread is fascinating, showing as ever the diversity in people and their experiences

Elsie. I find that harder to imagine than Alex's position ....this thread is fascinating, showing as ever the diversity in people and their experiences

Interesting that your ex redefined her sexuality according to your sense of self. How do you think you would have felt had she responded that she still loved you, was still sexually attracted to you, but still considered herself lesbian?

@SpiritOfEnquiry

no worries!

@DodoPatrol

Ah ok, well I hope they're happy with everything

@Thingybob

thank you!

@midgebabe

ah alright, yeah it is radical really but I suppose that just shows how unhappy most trans people are pre-transition? I don't think I'll ever grow to accept myself as female (as in like not transition, I know I am female) because it just doesn't seem possible for me with how bad my dysphoria is, which really compared to some people isn't that bad. Honestly oppurtunity isn't that great, the waiting list for my local NHS clinic is around 3-4 years for the first 2 appointments? I'm lucky in that I can afford to do hrt privately.

@Kantastic

Yes I sort of get you? I suppose that like going back in history there's been people - I watched The Danish Girl the other day so like the woman that's loosely based on - who needed to transition even though it was unheard of, and I don't know of any cases of trans- anything other than Rachel Dolezal thinking she is transracial. It is interesting though.

thank you though! I hope you can come to terms with your height

@HPFA

you're welcome! yeah I think things like that are easier to understand :)

@Elsiebear90

yes I was surprised no one had agreed with you yet because I asked my friend (also a lesbian) and she thought it would be awful! But yes, I never really tried to be girly of my own accord but I imagine it's really hard for people who feel like they have to!

@LurkingPoster

she didn;t redefine it, she was curious about being bi before we got together I think? though honestly I don't really know. While we were together she worked out she asn't and that she was straight but I think it was more to do with her not fancying any girls in the year we were together (and before) than it was to do with me. We would have broken up 100% if she didn't accept me as a man I think

Hello again! I have been trying to think of how to phrase this without it coming across as having a go at you (so please just take it as read that I'm not!)

I was struck by your saying something along the lines of it wasn't really so much that you wanted to be a man so much as you didn't want to be a woman and I wondered two things:

1. Whether you think you have negative ideas of what 'being a woman' involves (god knows no-one could blame you given the crap we have to deal with!) and whether that was linked to things like the expectations your grandmother had of you (I realise this sounds like psychoanalysis which isn't my intention); and
2. (This is the bit I had trouble wording) Particularly given that you say it's not so much about being a man, but anyway really, do you feel that you have a right to men's spaces even if some or all of them were uncomfortable with it? And if so, why?

I don't think I've come up with a very good way of not sounding like I'm demanding 'what bloody right have you to X?!' but I hope you take my meaning.

It struck me because there's such a mantra of 'transwomen are women' and (let's face it, a lot less often) 'transmen are men' and that usually seems to be the basis on which the 'right' to sex segregated spaces is argued. I found it interesting that perhaps you're not quite saying that.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer what I appreciate must feel like very personal questions.

@SpiritOfEnquiry

ah ok :)

1. no I really don't think so, I went to an all-girls school which honestly made idiot me think we didn't even need feminism because it was so pro-women! after that of course I joined the real world and was proven very wrong but I really don't think I'm misogynistic at all! I just don't want to be a girl because of dysphoria, which of course science doesn't really know the source of. my nan's my best mate and I don't really mind that she's like that, it's annoying but her dreaming of a day I have long hair again makes her happy so I put up with it.

1. sort of? I don't really think it matters too much to be honest - I use men's toilets and no one minds - my male friends encourage me, really! If anyone said 'can you please leave I'm uncomfortable' I'd be really hurt but I probably would. I probably wouldn't go to any male-specific groups or anything until I passed 100%. I do think trans people are the gender they say they are and I think they have a right to use those bathrooms. If I was forced to use women's bathrooms, as well as making women uncomfortable it would honestly just make me feel really bad? It is such a hard one because I see both sides

*not probably would leave I definitely would

Haha, oh I totally relate to the all-girls school and 'why feminism' thing. Heady utopian days before later life thoroughly disabused me!

I do agree that the latter is tricky (and I suppose really I'm thinking about transwomen here) because I think most people's instinct is to want to be nice and inclusive (particularly to people who come across as pleasantly as you) and it would feel mean-spirited to tell someone that their presence makes them uncomfortable. But then there are plenty of people who genuinely do feel uncomfortable for reasons of religion, general modesty or fear/safety (and again, I wonder whether this is more a women's spaces thing) and it seems that it essentially becomes a question of whose concerns 'win' (without third spaces, I guess). The stark either/or of 'yes, you can come in' vs 'no you can't' is presumably why this gets so heated.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by 'gender' in the context you use it? Is that kind of how you describe your indefinable sense of yourself that you can't describe in another way (as you were talking about early on in the thread)?

I confess that my old girls-school reaction(!) to the idea of 'gender' has always been to raise my hackles at an implicit sexist stereotype but I gather it's being used in a different way in the context of this sort of discussion and I've always wanted to ask how people differentiate it from that (but have frankly not wanted to be shouted at! I get the feeling you might not shout at me so it's safe to ask...)

Hope you have something nice planned for this evening once 20 Questions is over!

Alex you come across as a lovely thoughtful person. Thank you for explaining. The

I am a woman, but I don't "feel like a woman". I just feel like me

This. I don't feel like a woman; I just am one.

@SpiritOfEnquiry

Yes I was exactly the same haha!

I know yes it is really hard. It's so much harder for trans women than it is for me really because I'm pretty confident that men just don't really care, if they can even tell. It's hard to gauge how well you pass, and I imagine most semi-passing trans women are torn between going into the women's and making women uncomofortable, or being turfed out of the men's/assaulted in there, which unfortunately does happen. If I was in that situation I would probably take my chances with the women's, like if you're torn between fear of assualt and fear of making someone uncomfortable I'd probably (maybe selfishly) use the women's. Most trans people I know & see online just try to avoid public bathrooms (I do and it doesn't even worry me that much) because it's just so hard.

Yeah, I say gender to mean like inexplainable sense of self really. I don;t really think about any sterwotypes when I say it, I mean I dress 'like a man' and have short hair etc. but I am the least laddish person in the world really! I just like being called 'he' and Alexander and Mr etc.

@Siablue

thank you!

@CatandtheFiddle

I think most people feel like that! If my gender and sex matched I imagine I'd never think about it, I only think about gender because I'm not happy with my sex.

Oo, I have one more! It's potentially another doozy and I'm conscious of not wanting to interrogate you (I confirm you are not under arrest and are free to leave at any time! ) but:

You mentioned Rachel Dolezal and her feeling herself to be transracial. Do you have any thoughts on that from your perspective at all?

Hi Alex, I’ve really enjoyed reading your responses on this thread even if some of what you say is so far beyond my own experience I can’t get my head around it. I’m not pompous or naive enough to believe that my own experiences are the be all and end all so it’s been very interesting to read your perspective. I imagine this must be quite an intimidating place to come and talk so I thank you for being so honest.

I have a question, and I’m not sure I can word it without being very strong in my convictions, but we all have our own convictions so I hope you can understand where I’m coming from, even if you disagree or find my level of conviction hard to swallow.

Anyway, I find it really upsetting when transwomen insist they are lesbians. It causes a physical reaction in me because I feel it so viscerally. I spent years coming to terms with the fact that I’m a lesbian because I had so much internalised homophobia, so in a way I feel cheated because for so long I was surrounded by so much homophobia that it made me hate myself.

Do you understand where I’m coming from here? Do you get that lesbians especially get so much shit because of misogyny that when biologically male people now decide they want us to accept them as lesbians we can’t accept it? You must have seen the amount of shit lesbians get for being same sex attracted, how we are called names, threatened and god knows what because we do not and will never want to have a relationship or sleep with anybody male.

I’ve heard all the argument that say it’s got nothing to do with me and I don’t have to go out with anyone I don’t want to, but it’s not as simple as that when lesbian dating sites are overrun with transwomen, and you daren’t state female only because you’ll get a barrage of abusive messages, and all the previously lesbian groups now have males in them which makes many of us feel uncomfortable.

I was just wondering what your take on this is, as you were a lesbian before you transitioned?

I presume you now consider yourself as a straight man, apologies if I’m wrong, but do you understand that there’s a difference in the power dynamic because you’re biologically female who identifies as male, where as transwomen are biologically male, and males are responsible for oppressing both females and lesbians, so there’s a big difference?

I’m not lecturing you here, I’m sure on some level you get where I’m coming from. I’m just interested in what you think and whether you can get where I’m coming from, even if you don’t agree.

(Thanks so much again for joining this thread - it would have been very short-lived without you!)

(Thanks so much again for joining this thread - it would have been very short-lived without you!)

@SpiritOfEnquiry

Honestly I don't know much about it but I do find it very unbelievable. I don't think it's comparable to being transgender really, mostly because we know gender dysphoria has some kind of basis in science (even if no one is sure what) yet she seems to be the only person to identify as transracial? I think it's very odd reallly. No worries though!

Hi Alex, do you think that female women should have any spaces reserved as single sex? I'm thinking more along the lines of prisons, hospital wards, rape crisis shelters rather than just public toilets. Nobody here wants to hurt trans people, we just want to reserve spaces where it is possible to value and prioritize women's needs.

I'm wondering how you conceptualize gender, what does the word mean to you?

I'm also wondering, and trying to put this delicately, if you have considered that constant binding/packing is teaching your brain to expect that sensation and in fact reinforcing the dysphoric feelings in moments when that sensation isn't happening - does that make sense?

I'm curious about aspects of your story, particularly relationship with your mother/being brought up by someone other than a parent, but I recognize that is very personal and not the kind of thing you should broadcast on a public message board!

Has the experience of mumsnet's feminism board been what you expected? What did you expect?

@Whatisthisfuckery

Hi, no worries it's been good craic mostly! I understand where you are coming from but I don't think it's very fair really. It's really horrible that you felt that way and I hope you've been able to get past it.

I get why you feel cheated but I suppose maybe saying that to be a lesbian you have to have had internalised homophobia/lesbophobia isn't constructive - many lesbians won't have had as hard of an experience as you. A trans woman who transitioned young, or felt taken in by society's messaging for women, will likely have similar feelings to you and understand (to some extent!) society's negative messages about women and lesbians - even if it wasn't fully their experience.

I agree you should be able to be open about being solely attracted to cis (sorry!) women, and I think most trans people feel that way really, especially about pre-op trans women. The majority of trans people I see online DO NOT think it's transphobic to have genital preferences. It's just hard to experience the rejection for trans people because it cuts really deep.

Yes I do get that to some extent, though I really think the vast vast majority of trans women would understand, it really is a case of a vocal minority often. I'm sure I annoy straight women on tinder but then it doesn't make sense for me to go on lesbian dating apps because (especially in a few months after I start hrt) I imagine no lesbians would want me haha.

Hi alexk3

I was interested when you said that "I think most people feel like that! If my gender and sex matched I imagine I'd never think about it, I only think about gender because I'm not happy with my sex." I can't really understand what 'my gender and sex matching' means but I am really not interested in my gender as it's not something I think about, care about or in any way really forms part of my identity. When I read the definitions of binary I think that's me, but I don't want to be pigeon-holed by people who have constructed these concepts without regard to what they actually mean to significant numbers of the population. Not sure if that makes sense but I guess that's part of why I find this so hard to get my head round. I do think you have to have strongly formed, at least to some degree, ideas about 'gender' in order to be able to feel that they don't match and that always makes me wonder whether, as a society, we'd be making a lot less people feel unhappy in their bodies if we could be less gendered - so not making it easier for people to 'change' gender (quotes as I think trans people might say they ever changed they just had to battle to be accepted) but to decouple our ideas of gender identities. I do wonder if those of us who struggle more to understand this issue are sometimes also the people who have already decoupled this more, well at least some.

Alex, do you declare upfront that you are a trans man, on Tinder?

@ALittleBitofVitriol

Right I honestly do not know enough about anything like that but will give it a go. I think for non-violent offences if the trans women has veen transitiioning prior to the offence then they would probably fare better in a woman's prison. I just looked at some stats BBC and in 2019 11 trans women were assaulted in male prisons (and one carried out an assault which is obviously awful) so it's clearly not very safe for them. I think it's very much case-by-case really. If it's a violent/sexual offence I'd be very hesitant to house them with women but then I know nothing about it and I'm sure the people who run them know more than me. I know they can put like police officers in separate rooms so maybe in some circumstances that would be best? Also know nothing about hospitals so can't really answer that because I don't know how open they are really, but it wouldn't matter to me if I was with another trans person - I'm sure if anyone was very bothered something could be sorted? For crisis centres I have no source (sorry) but I'm sure I heard the other day that some charity contacted a lot of domestic abuse centres and none had ever had an issue with trans women? I think if they had more funding perhaps a single room or something would be good but I genuinely know nothing about it. These are all just my very uninformed views as well so don't take it too seriously.

I don't even know really, I've talked about it a bit on previous posts so would look back. For me it's just that I am really uncomfortable with my female traits and want to be referred to as male.

I get you but I don't think so, I was uncomfortable enough to start binding and packing so I definitely wasn't happy before. I had to have a week break from binding when I was ill the other week, and even during that I was really uncomfortable. I think I'm just more used to how my chest looks when it's flat and then when it isn't I'm more uncomfortable because I know it's now unusual? But even if I stopped I don't think I'd ever just get over it.

I was brought up by my mum as well we just lived with my nan haha.

I lurk here all the time just to see other ideas (probably too much to be healthy) so I knew what it was like - knew I'd be called internally homophobic etc.

@randolph78

I get what you mean but I don't really agree. I don't care about gender roles and stuff like that, as I've said I just want to be referred to as male and have a male body, outside of that I'm not bothered. Random people on nights out tend to think I'm a gay man (I've had 'gayboy' shouted at me across a bar before!) because I'm not laddish at all.

@chatons

yep