Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A question for Transmen and Transwomen

999 replies

SpiritOfEnquiry · 09/07/2020 14:01

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

  1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.
  1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
8
Hanrora06 · 09/07/2020 22:45

I have read this thread and found it so interesting. I guess I have a few thoughts. Apologies if they're rambling.

  1. I'm a cis straightish woman and I always find it really interesting when other women say they don't identify so much as a woman they just are one. Totally valid but I think massively relevant- everyone feels gender differently!!

I think I probably would've said the same in the past but now I don't feel like that. I feel like...i very much am a woman. Like, it's a strong part of who I am. How could it not be? Especially in a society that focuses on sex and gender to the extent it does. What does it mean to feel like a woman? I'm not sure exactly. I just feel like a combination of things- how my body feels, how I look, how I interact, how I feel about things, how I look at things... not just typical things like sex characteristics or whatever, or even being pregnant. I guess I just strongly identify as a woman as an identity, and I think it is an identity. It has been given meaning not only by sex but by other things and it just so happens how I feel matches how I look and am treated.

  1. I think there will be much more to come on this issue in time. I think there's so much more to say about how certain societies view gender and sex and how that massively varies. There's always the standard points like other languages that don't have gendered pronouns (e.g. Chinese) other cultures with more than 2 genders, or that view gender fluidity as normal. What's the role of gender historically? What did it mean in our earliest evolution? What did we understand by gender? How did monotheist religion and patriarchy change that?

  2. my one main concern is puberty blocking hormones. I have no idea what to think about it. It is one thing I don't like to talk about as I don't know how I feel. I don't even like the idea of my child being on hormonal birth control as I think our hormone balance is so important for our general health. But then if those hormones make us unhappy...be it super heavy painful periods, severe acne, issues with fertility, etc etc surely we would diagnose medicine then? How can we unpick what is an unhappy teenager and a trans teenager? Who judges that? I think the sensitivity surrounding this topic makes it impossible to discuss.

  3. lesbians and trans women. I'm not a lesbian so it isn't my fight, but I do believe trans women (and anyone else) should identify how they want to, no issue there. However, I really am so sad it's some lesbians facing this fight and feeling afraid. Let's face facts that gay cis men aren't facing any sense of loss of their identity or violent online abuse because of trans men. To untangle this issue from patriarchy and the particular flavour of hatred towards lesbians in society is basically impossible. I think the idea anyone should feel at any time ever that they have to feel attracted to people because they identify in that group is bizarre. And surely it's fine to have an attraction to certain genitals and certain kind of sex?? That may be specific or it may be more flexible and that's OK either way. I think that this can go both ways- some lesbians may use language that antagonises trans women (due to their sense of fear or anger, legitimate or otherwise) and some trans women may be approaching dating with a sense of entitlement to be able to get the sex they want. Neither I would believe is representative of either group.

LemonadeAndDaisyChains · 09/07/2020 22:46

@Elsiebear90
I just wanted to say that I understand what you mean when you say women would be uncomfortable if they woke up and had a male body. Maybe I’m the odd one out here, but there’s no way I would want a male body and to be treated like a man, regardless of the benefits, I don’t think I would ever be able to get used to that, not just because it’s strange, but because I know that I’m a woman, I like looking like a woman, dressing like a woman, having a woman’s body, So I know if I was suddenly given a male body I could never ever happily live as a man because there’s nothing about being a man that I relate to or desire

Not just you, that's exactly how I feel too.
Feminine, and woman's body, "femininity feeling"
I'm straight and even though love men it would feel seriously wrong and distressing to actually be one!
It'd be like being placed in the wrong body and from that respect can see where trans people are coming from.

randolph78 · 09/07/2020 22:49

I get what you mean but I don't really agree. I don't care about gender roles and stuff like that, as I've said I just want to be referred to as male and have a male body, outside of that I'm not bothered.

I guess I'm not getting what you mean by gender not matching sex then. What is gender in that statement? (sex is clearer to me so I think we are on the same page there!). It really is refreshing to have a calm discussion about this and thank you again for devoting so much time to this.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 22:51

@Hanrora06

  1. yes I found it so unusual that some women didn't seem bothered! it's odd how people feel so differently but really interesting
  1. I think if a child is severly distressed about things in a gendered way then thats worring - not 'I don't want breasts that's embarassing' 'but 'I don't want breast, that's for girls' if you see what I mean? in the second case, that's why more funding is so important, so children struggling with whether or not it's dysphoria can readily access gender therapy and interrogate their feelings.
  1. completely agree! i think lesbians not wanting to date fully passing, post-op trans women is a little odd to me but people can do what they want of course! trans people can sometimes come across as entitled but it's the minority and also usually just coming from a place of hurt, though that doesn't excuse abusive behaviour obviously
Whatisthisfuckery · 09/07/2020 22:52

Thank you for answering my question Alex.

No, I don’t suppose all lesbians have had a hard time, but I doubt there’s a lesbian alive who hasn’t been hit on by straight men giving it all the ‘you haven’t had sex with me yet/I’m really a lesbian in a man’s body’ shit. Being told that ‘my female penis is different to a male penis’ sounds very much the same, you’ve got to admit.

Thing is, I’ve been told that if I don’t want to attend a lesbian event with transwomen present then I can choose not to, which is fair enough, but if a group of lesbians arrange a female only event we get protested, threatened and god knows what. You’d be amazed how difficult it is to find a female only lesbian group or event nowadays, let alone how hard it is to openly advertise one without getting piled on and having transwomen orchestrating to get it cancelled. I might feel a bit more sympathetic if transwomen left lesbians alone who want to be left alone, but that doesn’t happen.

I know none of this is your fault and you couldn’t change it even if you wanted to but surely you can understand just how upsetting and bloody infuriating it is?

Do you think lesbians who don’t want transwomen around should be able to say no and have that respected, even if some transwomen feel excluded, or do you think all lesbian groups and events should be inclusive, even if some (cis) women self exclude because they feel uncomfortable or unsafe?

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 22:53

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains

ah I'm glad you can see it that way! it is what it's like really

@randolph78

I really just find it hard to describe! I would say my gender is male because I want to have a male body and be referred to as a man, that's it really

Hanrora06 · 09/07/2020 22:58

@LemonadeAndDaisyChains @Elsiebear90 interesting to see both your thoughts are similar!

I'm a massive feminist and hate the patriarchy but I still see gender as a part of identity. I don't see it as coming alongside any stupid socialised gendered behaviour, I certainly don't see it as dictated by sex, (I don't want to know the sex of my baby as I see it as disconnected and irrelevant to who they might be as a person) but I think in some way everyone has a gender identity, that may or may not neatly match what society says their sex or genitals should mean. We'll accept certain variations within those expectations e.g. starting to get on board with the idea that men have feelings and women can play sport Hmm but still we also seem fixed on gender staying in sync your sex.

I think it's possible to see both gender and sex as real without seeing them within a binary. Woman is just a label for a gender that to me has a meaning that matches me. What does that mean, I don't know, but somehow it is. It's almost political. Like I identify as a woman as someone who also opposes the patriarchy and recognise other women as people who suffer within that in similar sorts of ways (not exactly the same ways though). Men can oppose the patriarchy but will do so differently. Trans people again will do so differently, but not only differently from cis people but from other trans people.

Super interesting. Thanks @alexk3. Please know that I don't see you as 'spokesperson' for the trans community. I'm just really interested in your experience as a human.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:02

@randolph78

oh and you're welcome :)

@Whatisthisfuckery

Yeah I know it must be frustrating, but again it's really a vocal minority and all groups have their idiots! it's just coming from a place of dysphoria and wanting to be accepted but I get it can be annoying.

It's hard because people just want to feel accepted, I don't know how I would feel if it was me obviously but I don't really see how a respectful trans woman would infringe that much on a lesbian event, and I'm sure if they tried to hijack conversation etc. it could be dealt with in a way that was more like 'don't be self-centred' than focused on her transness. I don't know because being straight now I don't have the same oppression, but I don't think the odd tran woman would matter to me really.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:03

@Hanrora06

no worries, glad you see my ramblings that way haha.

Hanrora06 · 09/07/2020 23:11

@whatisthisfuckery

I'm so sorry you've had these experiences. Again would you mind explaining a bit more why you don't want trans women at lesbian events? I don't want to bring up bad shit so please say no or ignore me if you want. I'm just really interested in hearing more about this and understanding it.

To just give my ideas around this issue of same sex spaces, feel free to critique- my feeling is that men who want to hurt women will do it and don't need trans as a mask. I think cis women hurt other cis women in same sex spaces but they aren't excluded as a group, as how would they be. I also wonder who is more at risk- a cis woman with a trans woman or a trans woman with a cis man. So in terms of trans women in certain spaces like refuges or prisons I feel like err on the side of what harm is most likely (i.e. cis man violence against trans women).

However, not sure how this applies to just general lesbian community events.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:13

@Hanrora06

that's exactly what I think!

ALittleBitofVitriol · 09/07/2020 23:18

Thanks for your response Alex. I appreciate you trying to genuinely answer these questions, I hope you read the similarly genuineness in my posts, I have no intention to upset you, but we so rarely get people who actually try to engage with the questions. My wording is supposed to be careful and the meaning explicit, not unkind.

Can I point out that my question was about reserving any single sex space for the purpose of prioritizing women, and your answer focussed on how women can compromise for the sake of transwomen. For example, if they can put police officers in rooms (as you suggested) why can't they do that in a male prison? Why is the assumption that transwomen must be prioritized and women might be appeased afterwards? I want to not be called a bigot for putting women's specific needs first in some instances, especially on the feminism and women's rights board
Put another way, is there any circumstance where you believe that female women should be able to gather and prioritize their needs, to the exclusion of any male person (men or transwomen?) In the same way, I absolutely believe that trans people should be able to have their needs met in an exclusive space, I wouldn't barge into a trans support group for example.

Thank you for trying to answer what gender is to you. Do you agree that without a good definition, enshrining the concept of gender/a gender identity in law can create problems for other protected classes (and potentially other unforseen problems)?

You say you want to be referred to as male, how important is the external validation to you? If you transitioned enough to lessen your body dysphoria, how much would it matter if you were still sometimes misgendered? I guess I'm trying to get at the difference between your relationship with your physical body, and your interaction with the world through that body.

I get what you mean re binding, and I didn't mean to imply that stopping would be easy or immediately helpful. Just trying to tease out the idea that physical interventions could overall reinforce and strengthen the dysphoria, even if it momentarily eases it.

🙂 happy to have guessed incorrectly!

I hope you keep lurking and joining the conversation! Authentic posters who are willing to engage are welcome.

May I ask how old (approx) you are?

petherbridge · 09/07/2020 23:24

I use men's toilets and no one minds

I'm a little hesitant to pick up the toilet thing, but you don't really know if anyone minds. I work with a transman who (pre-lockdown!) used the men's loos, and it made me really uncomfortable to be in there are the same time as them - not because they are trans, but because they are female.

Of course I haven't said anything, because it would be rude, and because they're no threat to me. But I'd much prefer it if they would use the women's or unisex facilities.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:37

@ALittleBitofVitriol

I suppose we don't really know what cis female prisoners think about the whole thing? It would be nice to know like what % are fine with it. I think if the trans woman doesn't pose a threat it's important she is at the least risk of harm really. I think women should be able to gather without men for a women's cause but I don't see how a respectful trans woman would be much of an imposition in most cases. If someone was really uncomfortable (because of male abuse or something) any understanding trans person would get that, especially if they didn't pass as well.

I don't know enough about it to be honest, same with prisons and that ^.

It's quite important, I got misgendered by a stranger for the first time ever really a few weeks ago and that was pretty grim. If I was more transitioned it would probably bother me more because I'd feel it was my own fault more (like mannerisms or something).

Yeah I get you, and yeah I'm 19 - 20 next month though

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:40

@petherbridge

Right well people might mind then but no one has ever said anything! I don't really get why men are uncomfortable because obviously everyone in there is very much eyes-down etc. I suppose the trans man doesn't know you're uncomfortable, but knows he would very much would be using the womens, so for him it's a no-brainer.

Whatisthisfuckery · 09/07/2020 23:43

Like I said, being told by a transwoman that their female penis is different to a male penis feels, and is, exactly the same as your average straight bloke saying ‘you’re just a lesbians because you haven’t had my penis yet.’ It’s easy to say ignore it, or surely most transwomen aren’t like that, but why should lesbians have males in their spaces at all? Lesbians are female homosexuals, why would transwomen think lesbians would want to sleep with them?

Don’t forget lesbians get hassled by men all the time. It’s impossible to go on a night out or walk down the street with a girlfriend without getting whistled at, nasty comments, asked by men if they can come and watch etc. Many lesbians have been subjected to corrective rape, and yes, it is a thing. Then there’s compulsory heterosexuality. A great many lesbians, probably a majority, and probably a large majority were effectively forced by society into relationships with men because being a lesbian is so unacceptable that they could never even countenance it as an option, and now after coming out and going through all that they find males, yet again, invading their space and trying to hit on them.

Transwomen are male, whether that fact makes them unhappy or not, and lesbians just do not want to have sex or romantic relationships with males. I just don’t understand why it is that lesbians have to give way to transwomen in their spaces. Why can’t transwomen just accept that lesbians are same sex attracted and leave us alone? There’s plenty of bisexual and straight women out there who they might like to date and who might like to date them, so why does it have to be lesbians? I can sleep with a straight woman and it doesn’t affect me being a lesbian, so why is it so important that transwomen date lesbians when there are billions of bisexual and straight women to potentially date? I mean, come on, what would they be missing out on by just accepting that lesbians are off limits when there’s literally billions of other women on the planet?

Honestly, I can’t make myself any clearer than that. The whole thing is fucking homophobic, and yes, I am angry about it, and for that I offer no apologies.

alexk3 · 09/07/2020 23:49

@Whatisthisfuckery

some lesbians do want to be with trans women though? if a woman says she's a lesbian, and is in a relationship with a trans woman, you can't dictate to her and tell her she must be bi, because she's said she isn't.

none of my lesbian friends have experienced any of what you're talking about either, I know it happens but it's not universal. It never happened to me and my relationship looked gay to the outside world and that was over a year.

Whatisthisfuckery · 10/07/2020 00:07

How much does it have to happen to be considered a problem that lesbians shouldn’t have to face?

MadBadDaddy · 10/07/2020 01:04

SpiritOfEnquiry OP I wish to complain - I told myself I was finally going to get an early night and then I stumbled over this thread! Angry

Seriously, in the daggers-drawn world of the trans debate, this thread has been an unexpected and genuine breath of fresh air. Thank you for starting it. It has been an amazing read so far, for so many reasons. Had to check the URL but yep....Mumsnet! Who'dathunkit? Confused

alexk3
Thank you for giving your time and energy to this topic. Your courageousness in opening up has paid off (must have been a bit nerve-wracking to begin with!) and you describe yourself and your trans experiences very well. I hope you continue to live your best life and always feel like you are being true to yourself. I hope your nan comes round.

Thanks also to the posters who have let their curiosity get the better of them and been so accepting and understanding, even if some of you didn't understand! Being Trans can seem unfathomable if you are not trans (and vice-versa!) but that's ok so long as people can respect each other.
It's been so great (and, I admit, a little surprising) to see a lot of the usual talking points discussed in such a respectful, constructive way, and with a welcome lack of (sadly expected) hostility or suspicion.
I wish there were more threads like this one. Flowers

Fieldofgreycorn · 10/07/2020 01:19

and yeah I'm 19 - 20 next month though

No rush then is there?

Some people have found that wanting to be referred to as he, and - talking to someone who believes with every fibre of their being that you are a man/male - are two very different things.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/07/2020 01:38

my feeling is that men who want to hurt women will do it and don't need trans as a mask. I think cis women hurt other cis women in same sex spaces but they aren't excluded as a group, as how would they be. I also wonder who is more at risk- a cis woman with a trans woman or a trans woman with a cis man. So in terms of trans women in certain spaces like refuges or prisons I feel like err on the side of what harm is most likely (i.e. cis man violence against trans women)

Stop with the cis. It's really disrespectful on these boards. The word is woman. If someone is trans use trans. If not it's just woman. We are not a subset of our own sex class.

Stop the false premise that women are as much a danger to other women as men are. That's bullshit. The danger to women and girls in mixed sex spaces compared to single sex spaces is proven.
Male on male violence is not women's problem to deal with.

Women have been raped and sexually assaulted by trans women in prisons because a males feelings were put over and above that of vulnerable females. If they are in danger in mens prisons they can have s separate area. Not in with women.

It's great that you are are able to transition to ease your dysphoria, that is what up until a few years ago, we all thought trans meant.

Unfortunately it has now been appropriate by a group of openly non dysphoric, heterosexual adult males, who are very aggressively trying to remove sex as a protected characteristic so they can access any and all female only spaces.

It seems like we are the only bloody ones not to be allowed "safe spaces" or kept out of danger from males.

They are not the most vulnerable oppressed people on the planet. They are the oppressors.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 10/07/2020 01:44

Appropriated. Bloody autocorrect.

wellbehavedwomen · 10/07/2020 03:24

I find it very interesting that people will, at one and the same time, argue that women are no less violent and dangerous than men are so trans women prisoners pose no additional risk, and then go on to say that trans women must be in women's prisons, because the men's ones are too dangerous. Those positions contradict.

I think we probably need some actual numbers here.

98% of jailed sex offenders are men. Women commit a vanishingly small proportion of sexual crime. 95% of violent jailed offenders are men. Most women are in prison for property crimes. Most men are in prison for violent offending. That's just the reality.

So in 2018, the Ministry of Justice gave the following figures.

There were 13452 jailed male sex offenders, from 33 million men in the population.

There were 128 jailed female sex offenders from 33 million women in the population.

There were 60 trans women sex offenders from an estimated 200,000 population.

Clearly, trans women are no more likely to offend than anyone else male. But they are, very clearly from those stats, far, far, FAR more likely to offend than anyone female.

Today, there are 1 in 50 male prisoners claiming to be trans. Clearly, many will be lying. But who determines that?

Evidence to the Parliamentary Select Committee in 2016 from gender specialist clinicians stated:

The converse is the ever-increasing tide of referrals of patients in prison serving long or indeterminate sentences for serious sexual offences. These vastly outnumber the number of prisoners incarcerated for more ordinary, non-sexual, offences. It has been rather naïvely suggested that nobody would seek to pretend transsexual status in prison if this were not actually the case... in one very well evidenced case that a highly concerned Prison Governor brought particularly to my attention a plethora of prison intelligence information suggesting that the driving force was a desire to make subsequent sexual offending very much easier, females being generally perceived as low risk in this regard. I am sure that the Governor concerned would be happy to talk about this.

80% of women prisoners have suffered serious sexual abuse and harm in their lives, more than half as children. There's actually research on sexual abuse being causative for women ending up in prison. Most women in jail won't have known a nice man in their lives, according to all the data we have. We're talking about women who have been prostituted out, beaten, often abused by their own fathers or stepfathers as children. Rates of PTSD are incredibly high. And then these extremely vulnerable women, most of whom are jailed for non-violent offences, and who have appalling experiences of men, are locked up in a very confined space with male criminals, if those males identify as women. And they are harassed and abused by trans prisoners, yes, according to Rhona Hodgekiss, former women's prison chief, now an MP. There's not just one case of a transwoman assaulting women, either, but seven: statistically, a trans woman is five times more likely to assault a woman prisoner than another woman is. And that's not the only issue.

The Chief Executive of the Howard League, Frances Crook, stated that she had 'personally witnessed female prisoners visibly "intimidated" by a male-bodied trans inmate in their midst. "The trans prisoner was dominating the space and the women were round the edges," she said.'

I would add that if a transwoman has a GRC, then there's a legal right to be placed in a women's prison. Which is one of the things that makes self ID frightening.

The United Nations Standard Minimum Rules for the Treatment of Prisoners state that 'Men and women shall so far as possible be detained in separate institutions; in an institution which receives both men and women, the whole of the premises allocated to women shall be entirely separate'.

Trans women are males. They should not be in a women's prison. Ever. We do indeed need a trans wing, or given the 1 in 50 stat possibly a whole prison, because trans women aren't safe in a men's jail either, and freedom from that sort of risk is a human right for all prisoners (I'd argue that nobody is safe in a men's prison, actually, but that's another issue). What we don't need are male people placed in with some of the most painfully vulnerable women in our society, and it takes my breath away that anyone can suggest otherwise - do people realise, too, that some women's prisons have mother and baby units? And are they aware that Karen White, the rapist and paedophile who sexually assaulted women prison (while on remand for raping a vulnerable autistic girl, in a woman's psychiatric ward - no red flags there then, no reason to question how effective 'safeguarding' can be considered to be) did so in New Hall, which has such a unit?

I'm absolutely supportive of people's right to live as feels right, safe and comfortable to them. We very much need laws to ensure discrimination, abuse and hate crimes are sanctioned. Nobody should suffer avoidable, forseeable harm, that we as a society can prevent. And that also applies to women: it's appalling for anyone to suggest that we treat women as disposable. Women have single sex spaces because we commit far less sexual crime, and actually far less violent crime. 90% of sexual assaults in changing rooms happen in the 30% othat are unisex. Just 10% happen in the 70% that are single sex. Women are safer in vulnerable situations when entry is restricted solely to other women. There's no evidence at all that trans women are significantly less of a statistical risk than any other male. Are most trans women no risk to anyone? Yes, of course. Are most men no risk to anyone? Yes, of course. But SOME are. And as we have no way to tell who is who, no men access women's spaces.

Single sex provision is a trauma-informed necessity for women who have been harmed by male violence (which is almost all women in prisons, and homelessness shelters, and by definition all women in rape crisis provision, or domestic abuse shelters). I'm aware Stonewall promote those willing to claim that there's no problem. They don't promote the people who say that yes, there absolutely is a problem. Nor do they ever for a moment acknowledge that those women traumatised by men need - not want, NEED - a single sex space in which to heal. And gender identity is personal, and inward. Bodies are outward, and what others can see. Male bodies around traumatised women are harmful, no matter how lovely the owner might be.

I do wonder sometimes what people think feminism is for, or about. Women are oppressed because of our biological sex. Across history, and across cultures, women are abused, killed, harmed and controlled as a means of ensuring our reproductive and sexual potential is not our own. That's why female genital mutilation exists. Why little girls are married to old men. Why period huts exist, and why 70% of modern slaves are women - most of whom are forced to submit to commercial rape. Why in most countries, until recently women couldn't vote, or own property. It's not done because of gender identity. It has nothing to do with dress or hair or behaviour, unless the behaviour threatens that control in some way. Sex is the foundation and that remains, through transition. To pretend that a man can say a form of words and magically morph into a woman, and pose no further threat to women and be literally one of us... I'm sorry, that is simply a lie. A self evident, obvious lie. And the demand that female people subjugate their own needs, rights, ease and even safety, to please a group born male, is not feminism. I's not new, or progressive, or kind. It's just more of the same old shit, and I'm standing for, and with, my sisters - especially the most vulnerable, who most need protection and support from male violence. I stand with women.

Bluebooby · 10/07/2020 05:46

I don't understand gender when it's spoken about as anything other than meaning sex role stereotypes. The only times I've "felt" like a woman have been during uniquely female biological events such as while breastfeeding. I don't think of myself as anything other than a person who happens to be a woman. Being a woman has obviously shaped me in many ways, but it doesn't define me. Yet I am still a woman. No matter what I do or wear. I have no doubt in my mind that if I was born male I'd feel the exact same way about being a man.

I have however, experienced the feeling of deeply hating my body, especially the parts that mark me obviously as female including my breasts and my hips. This has expressed itself as depression, anxiety, eating disorders, self harm, fixating on plastic surgery, hiding under baggy clothes, doing the reverse and wearing very "skimpy" clothes to try and convince myself I didn't care, fear of leaving the house and being seen. I am in a better place now but I don't know if those feelings will ever go away entirely. I can analyse and understand the reasons behind my feelings and from accounts I've read from some trans people I can see direct parallels, so I do not understand why it is treated so differently and why one is taken so much more seriously than the other.

ItsLateHumpty · 10/07/2020 06:11

It's been so great (and, I admit, a little surprising) to see a lot of the usual talking points discussed in such a respectful, constructive way, and with a welcome lack of (sadly expected) hostility or suspicion.

To be fair the OP SpiritOfEnquiry didnt start the thread announcing they were a TRA here to harhar at a GC subreddit being shut to 65,000 women.

And alexk3, whilst using terms generally found problematic on this forum, has tried to be considerate and measured.
I may not agree with the some of the conclusions alexk3 has come to but there has been no hostility.