A question for Transmen and Transwomen

[SpiritOfEnquiry]

I have name changed for this.

I'm not sure whether this is the best board (or place on the internet) to post this but I gather it's watched by many people so I'm hoping to get an answer from people with first-hand experience one way or another. This is not intended to be in any way goady, there just seem to be so many different understandings of what makes someone 'trans' and I think it's important to know what we're talking about.

I'm generally and genuinely curious about how transmen and women view their own desire to present or be viewed as the opposite sex to which they were born.

Leaving aside anyone for whom presenting as the opposite sex is a sexual thing (I gather there are complicated rules on speaking about this on this board and don't wish to be offensive), my current (no doubt very basic) understanding is that it must fall into one or both of two categories:

1. Dysmorphia in the sense of being uncomfortable or horrified by your physical body, or parts of it, as are people who feel a deep revulsion towards a healthy limb.

1. A feeling that you are a man or a woman, regardless of your body, and wish to be treated as such.

The first category I can get my head around to an extent. I don't pretend to know the reasons or best response but I can understand what is being said.

The second causes me more problems and I am curious to know how transmen and transwomen think of it to themselves. What, to you, counts as 'living as' a woman or man? What, in your view, is the difference between being treated as a man and treated as a woman? If you lived in a society where the expectations ascribed to each sex we're different, or you'd received different messages about that growing up do you think you'd feel differently?

Particularly:

A) Do you believe that there are in fact (perhaps even in science) internal feelings/traits etc. common to all women or all men regardless of the society they live in that you, as someone biologically of the opposite sex unusually share, making you therefore really a man/woman on the inside? Or perhaps
B) Do you feel that 'feeling like' a man or woman is indeed based on sexist stereotyping of the society in which you live but, while that stereotyping is alive and well, it's more comfortable for you to describe yourself as being the opposite sex than to try to present as the biological sex you are but live outside of the stereotypes?

Doubtless I'm stepping on landmines left and right, here, but I truly can't find my own way through the difference between "living as a woman" and sexist stereotypes, and rather than immediately conclude that there isn't one, I'd be very interested to hear others' thoughts.

Thank you in advance.

Sorry, you answered the counselling question while I was typing.

I was trying to find a way to ask stuff that wasn't really intrusive, which is hard when it's clearly so personal. Again, thank you for being willing to engage, and so politely. Given the reputation we have here that is appreciated. We really aren't, for the overwhelming most part, anti trans people. We're just worried about the implications for women, if unable to organise as a sex class and have spaces and provision based on sex.

Another thank you to the OP for starting the thread and alexk3 for responding so openly.
One of my great regrets about all this is that the schism it's created between women. As a young lesbian I was supported and learnt so much from older lesbians. As a young feminist I was so often in awe of the knowledgeable/ experienced older feminists who trail blazed women's rights in the 70s / 80s. I listened and debated their thoughts and ideas. It saddens me that so many young girls are thrown into all this and can often only rely on social media for support.
Struggling to articulate this clearly and in no way looking to criticise but I fear for all the very young teenagers cast adrift in all this - desperately searching for something that may not solve their problems and with such extreme consequences?
alexk3 - not trying to put you on the spot but do you have concerns about the 8 - 15 years olds and the confusion of puberty / gender dysphoria?

@wellbehavedwomen

Ah it's fine no worries: glad it makes sense! Yeah that's basically it, for me it's not so much that I feel like a man than I just feel massively uncomfortable as a woman? But then some days, or doing some things I do feel like a man, or at least manlier? I was mowing the lawn the other day and it just made me stupidly happy even though of course it's not an inherently male thing. Sorry I know none of this makes sense but it makes no sense to me either haha.

I do think this site isn't the best place to engage with people in good faith so I wouldn't take anyone's actions as representative of a group. I can see why trans women can be harder to speak to on here because much of the anti-trans (for want of a better word) arguments are more against trans women than men. I think the idea of performing a gender can be sort of hurtful to cis women (sorry I know people don't like that word but I mean it purely as non-trans) but a lot of it does come from dysphoria. I think trans people can have a solidarity with their gender as well, and perhaps I would if I has closer male friends? I think there's probably a lot of trans women passionate about women's rights but i imagine they'd get less attention than anyone who isn't.

I don't really think therapy works for me to be honest, one of my main flaws is that I like to think I know everything so it just does not appeal to me at all! I've met with a few therapists but never really continued with them though I'm supposed to be having CBT or something in September so will see. I worry about detransition a lot but then this is something I've thought about loads and so far it seems right for me - I've been out to some people for 18 months and bits of my family for about 6 and I've never in that time felt uncomoftable being called 'he' etc. I've watched and read a lot of detrans stuff and I don't think we have anything in common really so I'm not too worried.

Thanks for your response, Alex.

So, you’d go for straight or bi women. I wish you all the best with that. I find even basic straight relationships too much faff.

I’m not sure I would consider myself a “straight” woman if I wanted to embark on a relationship with a trans man though. 🤔

I hadn’t even considered bi women in my question, what a divvy. My brain ain’t working today (or any other day).

Are you having any treatment for your depression?

@wellbehavedwomen

ah no worries I took ages to reply to your thing haha. No worries though I do understand the concerns even if I don't always share them.

@truthisarevolutionaryact

I think social transition for under 15s is fine to be honest, changing clothes/hair/name isn't really hurting anyone so I'm fine with that. I think there should be more reasearch into blockers but if children are really desperate then I think it would probably be worth it? The GIC's desperately need more government funding in my opinion, I saw the newsnight about it the other day and I think more counsellors would solve a lot of issues, as well as sorting it so staff can feel they can raise concerns openly.

I did that "waking up in the wrong body" thought experiment a while back and concluded that waking up in the body of someone who was shorter than me would feel strange and wrong, and that I'd be much happier waking up in the body of a tall long-legged man than the body of a short woman with short legs.

I'm not super gangly or anything. I'm just a bit above average height and a bit on the long-limbed side. I think my mental picture of myself must be taller and leggier than I actually am. I can imagine that if height altering surgery was readily available and there was a massive transheight community online and people were telling me that my anxiety issues might be due to my transheightism I'd probably start thinking that I am transheight and I might start obsessing over this slight disconnect between my self-image and my actual body, and by obsessing over it start magnifying the disconnect into dysphoria where I felt I NEEDED height altering surgery.

Even talking about this hypothetical scenario is amplifying those feelings, making me uncomfortable and slightly sad that height altering surgery isn't readily available.

I suspect these disconnects between the actual body and the imagined body are common, but only the sex-based disconnects get regularly amplified by culture into full-on dysphoria.

[quote alexk3]@wellbehavedwomen

Ah it's fine no worries: glad it makes sense! Yeah that's basically it, for me it's not so much that I feel like a man than I just feel massively uncomfortable as a woman? But then some days, or doing some things I do feel like a man, or at least manlier? I was mowing the lawn the other day and it just made me stupidly happy even though of course it's not an inherently male thing. Sorry I know none of this makes sense but it makes no sense to me either haha.

I do think this site isn't the best place to engage with people in good faith so I wouldn't take anyone's actions as representative of a group. I can see why trans women can be harder to speak to on here because much of the anti-trans (for want of a better word) arguments are more against trans women than men. I think the idea of performing a gender can be sort of hurtful to cis women (sorry I know people don't like that word but I mean it purely as non-trans) but a lot of it does come from dysphoria. I think trans people can have a solidarity with their gender as well, and perhaps I would if I has closer male friends? I think there's probably a lot of trans women passionate about women's rights but i imagine they'd get less attention than anyone who isn't.

I don't really think therapy works for me to be honest, one of my main flaws is that I like to think I know everything so it just does not appeal to me at all! I've met with a few therapists but never really continued with them though I'm supposed to be having CBT or something in September so will see. I worry about detransition a lot but then this is something I've thought about loads and so far it seems right for me - I've been out to some people for 18 months and bits of my family for about 6 and I've never in that time felt uncomoftable being called 'he' etc. I've watched and read a lot of detrans stuff and I don't think we have anything in common really so I'm not too worried.[/quote]
I do know now that some trans women very much feel solidarity with women (and don't want to share women's spaces because of it - they recognise their sex makes women uncomfortable, and want unisex provision, ideally). It's interesting, as a Twitter lurker, seeing trans voices support JK Rowling's views. That's not a stance you see often reflected in the media.

I don't really understand your sense of gender identity, as it's just not one I share, but I do understand its importance to you, and I sincerely hope it does work out for you, and you are happy with whichever path you take.

Again, thanks for engaging. It's been really interesting.

@Chatons

Thanks, honestly enough girls don't seem to mind that it's not something I worry about reallly. I wasn't out when we started dating so she wasn't sure if she was bi or not but then she decided she was straight and because of my dysphoria it didn't really matter anyway too much. Not at the minute, nothing has worked really!

@Kantastic

I think it's easy to hypothetically think something but then if you wanted to keep wearing your own clothes on a male body and that, or then had to shave etc. it would probably be a bit strange!

I mean maybe? But then there were trans people long before any kind of trans communities so I'm not sure that's really the case.

@wellbehavedwomen

thank you!

I don't give a fluffy fart about clothes and I'm sure I could handle shaving, or I'd just be lazy and grow myself a wokebeard.

And you INVITED us to do this thought experiment of yours, you can't refuse to accept the results because they don't make sense in your worldview. When I do that thought experiment, height is a relevant variable and sex is not.

@alexk3

I think you're coming across amazingly here and you are a bit of an inspiration. There are many people (me included) who are struggling to make sense of a lot of what is said about trans issues so thank you to much for sharing your experiences.

You said that "I find the whole idea of 'boys toys = you're a boy' pretty annoying (as do most trans people!)" but I just wanted to say that I don't think this has got anything to do with being trans really. I think most people find that annoying, old fashioned and helpful. This is definitely not a trans issue!

Thanks for answering so many questions, Alex. I have a young trans family member who I personally think has rushed into full transition after some traumatic events. It’s very interesting to read things from your perspective.

@Kantastic

ok, good for you i suppose? It was literally just an example, sex isn't relevant for you but it is for some people

Just want to say thank you for sharing Alex. You sound like a lovely man and I hope you find the love you deserve when you are ready for a relationship.

I've struggled so much with some of the TRA / TERF issues lately. I've always considered myself liberal, and being a lecturer at an FE college I often work with trans students and I'm more than happy to accept them as their identified gender and use their preferred pronouns. I see these young people as belonging to a vulnerable group and want to protect them, and make them feel safe and happy in college. I respect them and believe them.

Unfortunately some of the recent fury towards any emphasis of the idea that biological sex is real, and /can/ be a significant part of being a woman (it might not always be for every woman) along with #nodebate and some of the desire for violence and subjugation towards cis women has really upset and confused me. So - I'm so glad to have been reading this and seeing normal discussions and an acceptance from an obviously intelligent trans man that these issues can be complex and raise different views.

I do believe that traditionally women, and feminists in particular, have always been allies to the LGBTQ community and I hope with more open, thoughtful and intelligent discussion we can get through this very strange period when there seems to be an odd wall of hostility.

We'd be so much stronger if actual respectful debate and discussion could resume.

I don't know if any of this makes sense but I do thank you and you are brave and kind to come among people with some GC views.

Sure. I was just giving a hypothetical example, not really to you, of how a different form of dysphoria might be created, amplified and exaggerated into a condition needing treatment by a different kind of culture.

I think it's interesting that you expected that "wanting to wear your own clothes" would be very important to someone.

@randolph78

thank you! no worries I just want to offer a bit of a different perspective :). I agree it's not got anything to do with trans things, but I think the two do get conflated sometimes which doesn't help anyone!

@DodoPatrol

no worries! i would say just make sure they know they can talk to you and do a lot of listening, if it's right for them it's right and if it isn't I'm sure they'll work it out

@UrsulaBirkin

thank you so much ! I think it's a very vocal minority that don't think sex is real and they show us up to be honest! I don't think it's always very important but of course it's a real thing. Things can always get heated (especially online!) but I agree it doesn't really help anyone.

@Kantastic

perhaps that does happen to some people but I really think it's the minority of people who actually transition - I'm sure there's a tiny number of people who socially transitioned in a 'trans phase' but I think hardly any actually medicaly transition.

I brought up wearing clothes because in this hypothetical situation I was imagining someone randomly waking up as the other sex (who didn't seem bothered by the physical changes) trying to, for example, get ready to go to work or whatever, and then having to try and wear their old things but now with a penis/flat chest etc. It was really an off hand thought.

Still struggling to be honest, you haven't said anything that helps me see why I am different to you fundamentally . Being probably many years older than you, trans barely existed , so one didn't have the option unless you were lucky with your body shape if you get my drift,

@midgebabe

well you're probably not that different? I am a person just one with gender dysphoria... I don't know what you want me to say really

Oh wow, this has moved on a bit! Last time I looked it had the responses and I thought it was going to die a death!

Thanks very much for answering, Alex. I'm about to have dinner but I do have questions! I'll try to think about how to phrase then while I eat!

Alex, thanks but there is a very big Do Not Discuss sign hovering over the whole business (not my own child but a more distant relationship). And frankly, given the surgical and hormonal changes are now irreversible, it’s a bit late for discussion. I’m pretty worried that this particular teenager is likely to regret the damage to a previously healthy body by about age 25-30.

I know how much mental health matters too. I’m not minimising that. But the two are very much linked.

Thank you so much for your input to this thread Alex, it's been fascinating reading and you sound a lovely person.

if I knew what you should, say I wouldn't be asking, unless I thought you were being dishonest which I don't at all . It's interesting,

It's bugging me Because fully transistioning is a very radical thing to do to oneself? ( for me anyway. May be a bit of a health obsessive . Alcohol excluded ) What makes one person grow into acceptance and another take quite drastic action to change things? How much is driven by opportunity?

I'm not really talking about a"trans phase"- I'm not questioning the legitimacy of anyone's dysphoria, certainly not yours. I'm just trying to point out that the culture sets conditions that allow certain feelings to develop into dysphoria and others get set aside as mild oddities.

I'm not kidding on the height thing - I remember asking a friend as a teenager "Do you ever feel like you're taller than you really are?" and she just looked confused. So I decided it was just me and stopped thinking about it very much although I guess it's still a part of my experience.

If at that time my friend said "you must be transheight" and introduced me to a forum full of other "transheight" people, I don't think I would have stopped thinking about it. I think there's a chance it could have snowballed from a slight oddity in my self-perception to an identity and a need. But saying our culture might be setting the conditions for gender dysphoria to develop doesn't mean I think it's just a trend or a phase.

Anyway I don't want to argue with you, I think you're being very brave in talking about a subject that 's so close to your heart with people who you know to be sceptical about it.

@alexk3 Thank you very much for talking so openly and kindly. I think your description of feeling that something should be there but isn't was very good - I haven't experienced that but I can imagine it a bit. Whereas when people say "I feel like a man" or "I feel like a woman" I can't really imagine that at all. So thank you.