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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
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Winesalot · 05/07/2020 12:28

kelcat

I have had time to read all the thread as it is moving way to fast.

Do you have a suggestion how to deal with the discrimination that females face in employment due to their biology? For instance in the case of pregnancy protections? For instance for the fact that women still have huge inequality in representation in many, many sectors. (Eg. around 20% of uni lecturers are female and a minuscule number are BAME) And yet you have MPs stating that if a gender balanced board is 50% men and 50% transwomen that is satisfactory in their opinion. And we are seeing more women’s officer roles going to transwomen and NB people and often when there is separate LBTIQ+ roles as well. How does this actually represent women’s needs?

And sport?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/07/2020 12:29

I've already said they are things I didn't consider and have taken ownership of that and have said I will educate myself

Okey doke. Look forward to your future, better-informed contributions.

Milotic · 05/07/2020 12:29

@Datun absolutely. Why should we all be paying for these checks when its men who do most of the crimes they're bothered about?

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 12:29

@sleepyhead

And don't use the pretty people as your gotcha.

Firstly, it's incredibly offensive to the majority of transpeople who struggle to pass.

Secondly it's incredibly offensive to women to pretend that the vast majority of transpeople are not clearly their natal sex.

In reality, the lucky few do get to use whatever toilets they like but it doesnt mean that women should ignore a millennia of inbuilt sex recognition instincts that evolved to keep us safe.

I found the pictures on google, and I've already mentioned the people I personally know in real life whose transgender can "pass" so I've already said that's probably where my naivete comes from and have apologised for that.
OP posts:
Milotic · 05/07/2020 12:30

Just leave your kids with me. Cuz I'm a woman. Hardly any women abuse kids so I dont need safe guarding checks.

Waspnest · 05/07/2020 12:30

OP why not read-read-read until you understand more rather than just jumping in and expecting everyone to spoon feed you information.

ShinyFootball · 05/07/2020 12:30

No, men and their words and their spaces are left alone, on the whole.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 05/07/2020 12:30

Thank you Kelcat9494 for your responses. Most of us started from the point of view that it wasn't a problem - and then we started to see the aggression aimed at women who wanted to discuss the contradictions, the silencing and, for many of us, especially parents, the deliberate targeting of children in schools with the "if you're unhappy with your body / pubertal changes then you must be born in the wrong body" .

It's difficult, it's thought provoking and these issues need to be dealt with sensitively. But that's currently impossible because of all the "you're a bigot and need to die in a grease fire" responses made to any woman who dares to speak out. Keep talking, keep thinking and when you see a pile on like has happened to JKR, keep asking why some are so desperate for women to be forbidden from asking that our sex based rights be respected?

PAND0RA · 05/07/2020 12:30

According to stonewall I come under the trans umbrella and I’ve Never experienced any hate here at all. And I’ve been here for many years.

So I don’t really know what the Op is talking about.

And as for free sanpro - that’s an excellent idea, why don’t you start a campaign about it and I’m sure lots of MNers will sign up?

Who do you think should fund it - the NHS , government or local authorities ?

KingOfDogShite · 05/07/2020 12:31

I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through

I genuinely think people need to consider what some women go through. Women make up 50% percent of the population. Fuck handing over woman’s rights to placate the very vocal

OneEpisode · 05/07/2020 12:32

I do find it strange that Mumsnet, sited in the UK which is a country with a strong system protecting trans people (protected characteristic in law (Sadly still one murder per year of trans people, from all causes though, so potentially largely murder by spouses/partners) Is subject to so many ploppers writing in American English. When the USA doesn’t have protective laws and trans people are more likely to suffer harm.
Yet Mumsnet, owned by a woman and with members largely female, in the UK, is the target.

Heyhih3 · 05/07/2020 12:32

I’m not against trans but it is very complex and to be honest I do feel they are confused people and unsure about themselves. So I can understand how people are baffled I personally am. Especially if they want to date I think it’s complex and difficult to process. The period point is true though I strongly disagree. If a woman cannot conceive or struggle she shouldn’t be compared to a trans man.... it’s hardly the same nor similar. It’s the childbirth issues... normal side of being a woman. I think this is absolutely the issue trans are trans it’s not an attack but it is as though they just want to run the race with a biological woman. The majority of women do have a period and for those who won’t probably would take offence at your comparisons.
I can also understand somebody feeling uncomfortable by a trans woman sharing a public toilet that is female. That trans woman is still physically as strong as a man

TheMarzipanDildo · 05/07/2020 12:33

I think the toilet debate is tricky tbh. On the one hand, I don’t want predatory men following me into the bathroom, knowing they can get away with it if they say they’re women. On the other hand, I do worry about trans women in male toilets going through the same thing. And what about trans men?

Of course, the sensible answer for this would separate individual toilets in every building. We can dream!

Baaaahhhhh · 05/07/2020 12:34

I honestly don't have an issue with shared toilets, as one example.

However, what has recently really alarmed me, is that very sexually aggressive hate posts targeted at those (JKR) who dared to hold their own opinion. And not even an anti-trans opinion, just an opinion that woman's rights also matter, which they do. How can a transwomen use such appalling and violent language, including rape, when they believe themselves to be women? That's really a stretch for me. I would want anyone using this kind of aggressive and sexually violent message to be found and prosecuted. It is this, and this alone, that makes me fearful, yes fearful, of some transwomen's motives.

bitofasleuth · 05/07/2020 12:34

It's not so much hate as the fact that terms such as 'cis' are being imposed on us whether we like it or not. Not, as it happens. We have spent the last hundred years fighting for our rights against the patricarchy, only to find that men who have become women are now endeavouring to put their rights ahead of ours.

When it comes to toilets - what about the many women of a number of religious faiths who are obliged to only share private facilities such as toilets, swimming pools and changing rooms with other women? Do we deny these women access to those facilities so that transwomen can use them?

I don't hate transpeople, but I very much dislike their demands.

merrymouse · 05/07/2020 12:35

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space

Unlikely because this is a UK site and in the UK a 'bathroom' is a room that contains a bath. Discussion in the UK has been about changing the way that somebody might obtain a GRC, not 'bathroom bills', and removal or rights that female people need regardless of their identity. US and UK legislation are not the same.

I am really happy that you feel so comfortable using any public toilet/bathroom. I am too! I still need sex based rights, and for those I need words that can legally define sex.

Re: periods, the point is that women need sex based right, regardless of their identity. There is no way to identify out of sexism. If you chop up all the physical consequences of sex into unique phenomena that could happen to anyone, you make it impossible to discuss or analyse sex.

Female infertility and periods are both consequences of sex. Only somebody born with a female reproductive system can have a hysterectomy, whether because of cancer or gender dysphoria.

I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember

Please don't exploit suicide. That is not 'kind'. There are no clear figures on trans suicide.

Trans people's rights have been enshrined in the Equality Act for 10 years. This board discusses the removal of sex based rights.

but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom

Again, doesn't make much sense on a UK site unless you are talking about slipping on soap, and also because according to Stonewall definitions the vast majority of people are trans.

wellbehavedwomen · 05/07/2020 12:35

Hey Kelcat9494. Thanks for posting so reasonably and politely.

Firstly, while some do have animosity for trans people, absolutely, most here don't. The animosity is for the erosion of women's rights, and the Trans Rights Activists who are threatening rape and murder to women who disagree with them.

In my view, there are three areas of concern. One is what is being done to children and young people. The second is around women's safety, and women's sport. And the third is around the harm to women's rights, if we can't be identified as a sex class at all. I'm going to focus on the first.

I think to start: lots of people don't believe that a settled gender identity is a real thing at all. They believe that there is biological sex, and then personality. Biological sex is why women are oppressed all over the world. We are physically less strong, and smaller, and we perform absolutely all of the reproductive labour. To put it in simplest terms: we are the means of production of human beings, and in the same way that whoever controls the means of production of things has power, controlling women's reproductive potential gives power, and men have done so across almost all cultures and all of history, accordingly, using their greater strength and their lack of vulnerability in pregnancy and when child-rearing to do this. Misogyny is therefore baked in, to the point it's largely invisible. Now, the concept that everyone has a gender identity, unrelated to sex, is therefore controversial. Some claim it's proven by brain scans. This is utter nonsense. There's some indicative signs from scans, absolutely, but they can be interpreted in many ways and as proving many points. If brain scans were really determinative, as some assert so strongly, they'd be using them in Gender Identity Clinics to decide who needed to transition. It would be swift, reliable and a lot cheaper than the existing care model They don't do it because they can't. It's not a thing.

Most of us were where you are, when we first heard of this. Myself, I went to research the claims made on here to prove them wrong. I went to look up the data on suicides to prove that they were indeed horrific. Murders, same. I also went to prove transwomen are no threat to women at all, and in no way share male criminality patterns. The problem is, my beliefs were wrong, and the arguments here right.

The suicide stat was taken from a questionnaire, asking for young people with struggles with their mental health to complete it online, anonymously other than their email details, in exchange for being entered into a prize draw. There were no checks at all on who the respondents were, nor even if any had replied more than once. For a survey to be regarded as evidentially useful, it's important to know who the group surveyed are and how representative. That wasn't so. Now, from the thousands of responses, 27, I think it was, said that they were trans, and 12 that they had considered suicide in the previous year. No information is available on whether they had other mental health difficulties, such as autism and anorexia, which are common in trans youth and which also have dangerously high levels of suicidal ideation. Simply a very small sample, self-selected. That's where that stat comes from. It's also worth nothing that the Tavistock's Gender Identity Clinic, who now see in excess of 2700 of the most vulnerable young people in the country in regards to gender identity, say in a recent Freedom of Information request that no young person under their care has committed suicide in the past two years (the time frame being questioned) and that one per year has attempted it. This is not high at all for a group of young people under the care of CAHMS. GIDS have further stated that they deplore the framing of trans youth as especially prone to suicide, because all the evidence is that telling a group they are especially vulnerable to suicidal ideation makes them so. It is a risk factor in itself - it harms their resilience. Finally, half the cohort being treated are autistic, and 75% of autistic young people have co-morbid mental health problems, largely as a result, I suspect, of the way they are treated by the world.

This might be a good moment to explain that a lot of parents here have teenagers with Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria - no history of it in earlier childhood, and often some traumatic events. It might also be a good moment to explain that 3/4 of young transitioners now are girls, and that there are a growing number of detransitioners who have not found transition helps their dysphoria at all. It's not hate to question a narrative that sets a young person on a pathway to harm. Without intervention, and with watchful waiting, over 80% of young people questioning their gender identity reconcile to it, and decide that they are simply gay. With medication - a medication that mimics menopause - to delay puberty, 100% go on to take cross sex hormones. Simply put, in most cases puberty is a cure for gender dysphoria. And in addition, children put on puberty blockers, by GIDS' own accounting, are MORE likely to suffer from suicidal ideation than those who are not. It also has unknown long term consequences, and known problems in the short term including hot flushes, mood swings, and the failure to develop sexually, not just in physical terms, but also in emotional terms - in crush terms. It has an impact on the architecture of the teenage mind, and therefore unknown long term implications for the adult personality. There are no long term studies at all. It is experimenting on children.

There's also a huge concern around the fact that half of these children and young people are autistic. Autism means, quite often, a real difficulty coping with changes, a real difficulty managing the actual process of transitioning between changes, a difficulty parsing and understanding unspoken social rules and expectations, and an increased sensitivity to pain, as well as an increased distaste for dirt and mess. An unease with the physical body, for sensory reasons, is also common, as is a sense of social dislocation - of not being like everyone else. Now, that being the case, consider adolescence: a time when your body starts changing enormously, and as a prolonged process. For girls, breasts grow and periods begin, both of which are painful, and periods are messy and require organised management of that mess. It's also an intense stage in terms of socialisation and social expectations: remember how girls form really strong bonds, and also in groups and out groups? Where your tribe, and fitting in, and knowing the right thing to say or do in a hive mind way is so valued - where even non-conformity is conformist? Imagine that stage for an autistic girl. Imagine trying to fit in but not understanding the mindset, and feeling wholly different. Autistic girls are also more likely to be gay, and more likely to be gender non-conforming, than those who aren't autistic. And autism also means you like solid, concrete answers... and imagine you were told that some people never feel right in their bodies, and are socially at sea because they have to perform a femininity they don't feel. That it's not being odd, or weird, just male. That fancying girls doesn't make you gay, just trapped in the wrong body. And it's also a way of escaping the absolute barrage of unwanted male sexual attention at this age, that none of us are really equipped to deal with but autistic girls, especially, struggle to manage because it's inevitably harder to sidestep and deflect, with less adept social skills.

I know a lot of adult autistic women, because I'm a big believer in Nothing For Us, Without Us, so when I had a child diagnosed, I sought them out. Most say that they would have thought they were trans as teenagers, and are very relieved they aren't teenagers now. Because here's the other thing you aren't told: transition is not about sunny uplands. It's not about everything falling into place and being happy forever, in many, many cases. Efforts to explore this and do long term studies have been very effectively shut down but if you talk to detransitioners - which I have done - you hear some heartbreaking stories. Stories of lesbians whose school counsellers were gung ho on the way transition could solve all their problems. In actuality, they made them worse. Testosterone has huge health implications, when taken in large doses by women. The East German athletes have suffered appalling health difficulties. A detransitioner told me that after 5 years on testosterone, almost all trans men need a hysterectomy because the damage is so great. She's a campaigner against transition now because she is clear that it's not a cure for dysphoria - because dysphoria is about someone's mind, and not their body. She's a fiercely intelligent, kind woman who actually gently corrected me when I thought that transition was akin to my own reconstruction after breast cancer - cosmetic surgery to make me feel better in my own body - because she pointed out that helping someone feel okay in their own body by restoring it to what it was before being mutilated beyond their control is very different to mutilating a perfectly healthy body to attempt to cure a dysphoria in the mind. She said that the narrative for so many trans youth is that surgery will fix that profound sense of being wrong, so being desperate for that 'cure' they are also aggressively opposed to hearing anyone try to tell them that it isn't one. So they are being sold a dream that isn't likely to work. She is a campaigner against this because she says in her view, what evidence there is shows there's no improvement at all in mental health, or dysphoria... and that after five years or so, health outcomes are in fact worse.

It's not hate to recognise that people who are deeply unhappy need support, and understanding, and skilled, evidence based and well researched healthcare to ensure their greater happiness. Yet that is now being framed as hateful bigotry.

One final thing. With trans, safeguarding is abandoned. I've seen teachers on social media earnestly saying that they have a trans boy who needs adult trans confidantes and can some get in touch. They are literally advertising a vulnerable young person online, asking for strangers to contact so they can enter into a private relationship, based on enormous trust from the youth side, with no oversight from anyone else. The safeguarding implications of that are completely horrific - the assumption that being trans (or even just claiming to be trans - it's the internet!) is a 100% guarantee that the person can't possibly be predatory is disturbing. Yet it's also very common. And when anyone raises that as an issue, they are deemed transphobic. Safeguarding 101 is transphobic. That's really alarming. No group should be seen as beyond question in this way, when any kids, but especially extremely vulnerable kids, are concerned.

I am more than happy to provide evidence for any of the above, if you'd like it. I have videos of detransitioners if you're interested in viewing them. I strongly believe in listening to lived experience, as well as facts and studies. Sadly, the more research I've done, the more I think this is a huge scandal in real time. Newsnight did an appalling brief piece on GIDS, discussing some very alarming allegations against their practice - have you seen it?

Collidascope · 05/07/2020 12:36

I haven't read the whole thread as I don't have time, but some quick points from reading your first post, OP.

  1. Disagreeing with someone isn't hate. I disagree that trans women are women in the same way that I (an atheist) disagree that Orthodox Jews are "the chosen people." It doesn't mean I hate them. I just disagree with their estimation of themselves.
  1. Male and female toilets are separate because, among other reasons, women are safer when they have their own spaces when it comes to being vulnerable - e.g. removing clothes. Males commit 98% of sex crimes and trans women offend at the same rate as other men. It's not about being trans-exclusionary. It's about being male-exclusionary.
  1. Loos are the thing that get focussed on at the expense of other issues. Sports, refuges, prisons, hospital wards, women's clubs, changing rooms.
  1. There's also the issue of free speech. If I say I think belief in God is a load of guff, I wouldn't expect to be sacked for that, even if it offends some people. And yet women have been sacked for saying they don't believe in gender ideology and won't use the terms associated with it. That should worry you no matter what you believe. You know, "first they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out..."
titchy · 05/07/2020 12:36

my impression of trans people are those who don't identify with the gender of their body and go through procedures (whether it be the full blown transition or taking medication) to make them identify more with the gender they feel they are.

Well that makes you utterly transphobic then OP. Trans people no longer have to have any sort of dysphoria in order to identify as trans and seek access to facilities of the opposite sex.

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 12:38

@titchy

my impression of trans people are those who don't identify with the gender of their body and go through procedures (whether it be the full blown transition or taking medication) to make them identify more with the gender they feel they are.

Well that makes you utterly transphobic then OP. Trans people no longer have to have any sort of dysphoria in order to identify as trans and seek access to facilities of the opposite sex.

My mistake, again I need educate myself as I didn't know that. Please don't confuse transphobia with misunderstandings.
OP posts:
DomDoesWotHeWants · 05/07/2020 12:39

I appreciate not every trans person can "pass" but the ones I personally know can so maybe that's where my naivete has come from

But they can't - most women know. They know the shape, the smell, the hands the feet and the attitude. Transwomen are transwomen and that's what they present as.

Silentfrog · 05/07/2020 12:39

Thank you, @Kelcat9494 for your post, and for engaging thoughtfully with the responses.
I really appreciate this thread.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 05/07/2020 12:40

@Kelcat9494 this can be a scary board as there are a lot of very intelligent women here who debate this a lot. Few here believe in or indeed follow traditional female gender stereotypes, so the debate can get fierce. Many have seen atrocities and are desperate to protect the vulnerable women and girls from this.

We recently had a trans woman who was educating us on how not to hurt their feelings in our speech whilst on the same thread (where a woman had described sexual abuse) making a joke about rape threats.

I don’t think anyone here is hateful at all. I am, however, starting to worry about how “be kind” seems to be something people say to end the debate before the thorny issues are considered.

As a tip, telling women on this board to “be kind” is quite likely to have the opposite effect in these discussions Smile

titchy · 05/07/2020 12:40

@KaptenKrusty

not sure why the fuck I still have a profile on this toxic site tbh! I like it on here but all the anti trans stuff is so weird - it's a real shame that this has taken over and it's pushing genuine users who want fucking parenting advice or support away!
Maybe just stick to the parenting threads then eh?
Xenia · 05/07/2020 12:40

Thank you for posting. I am happy to talk about any of these issues as it is only through communication people can understand the position of each other. Ever since the 1970s I have been interested in trans issues - I remember reading I think it was a biography of April Ashley in the 1970s. I know many trans people have mental health issues which may be why they seem to be so forceful and nasty to women or that might just be that transwomen have the usual male thing that they want to shut women up - no change there. We are used to it.

So I come from a position of compassion. I support the UK gender change laws as they stand with the surgery requirement hormones etc and then you change by law. The law is you remain a man until you have gone through that process and I support that being the case. I did not support proposals (thankfully dropped) to change english law on this.

Most of us are women on here who are mothers and we all know how difficult it must be to have a trans child and have a lot of sympathy for the various kinds of transpeople.

However like most people I believe in freedom of speech. So I am delighted to live in a UK where you can lampoon public figures, engage in comedy which might upset people, say black is white, deny the holocaust, say women are inferior to men and I think if things upset people they shouldgo off and have a cry not try to censor everyone. So i certainly start from a position of freedom of speech. I defend the rights of people even whose views I hate to express them.

There seems to be part of the trans debate which is trying to stop people writing what they like, a bit like the McCarthy era in the USA. That is pity.

I hate no one.

On the issue of who is a woman - that is just a matter of definition and context. I prefer the English law definition - so once you have had your full gender change and have your new certificate then you can call yourself a woman although I think we should all have the right to say I knew Jim when he was a boy without getting told off for it. I hate people calling me by my first name but I don't kick a nurse in the guts if she dares to call me by my first name rather than my formal title and surname.

As for the lavatory issues raised first I don't think men have the first idea of what private space means to women. The last thing women want is people with a penis in our lavatory areas. Eg for years I expressed breast milk there and you cannot get the let down reflex to work if you aren't relaxed and yes having someone with a penis in the next cubicle is off putting. Secondly you might be wiping menstrual blood off your skirt by the mirrors and you don't want a man around. Also men are much much messier in lavatories than women and I just don't want them around (I have 3 sons). Also many women have ben assaulted by men so keeping people with a pension out of our toilets is important. however I don't often use them these days so I am more concerned about statistics eg domestic violence stats should not include as women committing violence to their spouse women who used to be male. Similarly with getting more women into powe r- we only have 20% in the UK of those high paid roles - i don't want ex men on women awards. The FT even gave one to a man who wore a dress once a week on Fridays i think it was - there are few enough awards for women in business without starting to hand them out to men.

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