Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

Hi OP, I have no hatred for transgender people, I see them as marginalised and in need or support. However the rights and interests of trans women do not align with those of natal women, and so there needs to be a conversation about the interplay between sex and gender in society to make sure that everyone is treated as fairly as possible.

The problem is that trans activists would say even wanting to discuss how to be fair to everyone is transphobic and bigoted, because trans women are women, no debate etc. It’s incredibly concerning, and lots of posters here and frustrated by it. It doesn’t mean they hate transgender people at all, they’re just sick of the suggestion that wanting to discuss the effect on women’s rights makes them a bigot who deserves to get cancelled/fired from their job etc

Are you familiar with the abuse women get for wanting to have this conversation? Do you think the threats of sexual violence jk Rowling received were somehow less awful than the opinion she expressed? Because trans activists couldn’t wait to condemn her for expressing her opinion but very few called out the misogynistic pile on which ensued. Does that not concern you?

The very fact you have no idea what women do in toilets except pee, is exactly the problem. Women need safe spaces to cope with the myriad bodily functions that come with being born a woman. Why should we have to worry about being exposed, physically and metaphorically, in what is, by law, a woman’s sex segregated space.

Go ask the Masons and all those gentlemen’s clubs why women aren’t allowed in. Go ask the Government why primogeniture disallows women from inheriting before their younger brothers. But apparently these things are all ok with the trans rights brigade. It is only things women have for themselves that are under fire. Sexism and misogyny in action. And I refuse to say otherwise.

Your post together with the pervy pictures makes me feel uneasy.

I don't hate trans people. I just feel things like sport, prisons, rape crisis centres, and yes, toilets should be separated by sex.

Sadly men, and it's always men AFAIK, have taken advantage of being able to declare "I feel like a woman" and so have been able to access vulnerable women. I wish I could say this hasn't happened, but there's a whole thread of documented examples.

It is not about hating trans people, it is about keeping women safe. I fully support third spaces, or sports for trans people, but there is a reason why only one Olympic sport allows men to compete with women. Men are generally, stronger, taller, have more muscle, and bigger lungs. I would get hurt if I tried to play rugby with a male, even if they wore a dress and called themselves Susan.

There is very little actual transphobia on here. It isn't tolerated. There is a lot of support for the right of women to be safe.

Xenia to get a GRC under existing law you do not need to have surgery.

I would not support that anyway as telling people they must have serious risky surgery when they are prob vulnerable is not a good thing.

@WorkingItOutAsIGo

Welcome to Mumsnet and thank you for your interesting first post.

Yup. Some people just need to educate themselves.

The photos were just to make the point of if you were worried about sharing a bathroom with a transgender woman and only biological women were allowed then I'd feel more uncomfortable walking out and seeing those two gentleman if I was inclined to that way of thinking whereas if I saw the woman I probably wouldn't notice as much, I appreciate not every trans person can "pass" but the ones I personally know can so maybe that's where my naivete has come from

Passing has nothing to do with it. And to boil it down to that is insulting and rude.
I have known lots of people who don't pass over the years (partly because there wasn't the technology or surgical expertise there is now before) Iv have been fine with trans people since I first met a trans person nearly 25 years ago!
It is about the people who have hi jacked the trans community That most people have an issue with.
I don't understand why the community at large is not absolutely apoplectic with rage that, perverts, fetishits, sex offenders and other predatory adults have for nefarious reasons used the trans unmbrella to access spaces (almost always women's) to feed their sexual kicks or to perpetrate crimes or to hide from the crimes they have committed etc and they do this in the knowledge that the community they have invaded provides an almost impossible to challenge their behaviour culture without being made look like a bigot.
I feel sorry that these people have stolen the hard worked for forward motion that the trans community worked so hard to achieve.

I don't hate trans people I have a child and friends who are trans, they are caught in the cross fire but I don't understand why they won't stand up to protect their community to protect themselves from the invasion they currently are being subjected to.

My mistake, again I need educate myself as I didn't know that. Please don't confuse transphobia with misunderstandings

I think you will find that even calling someone by (what they consider to be ) the wrong title or pronoun is thought to be transphobia or even a hate crime by some people.

This autistic teenager was fined £590 for his misunderstanding.

www.womenarehuman.com/autistic-teen-found-guilty-of-hate-crime-for-asking-police-officers-sex-autism-group-condemns-prosecution/

My mistake, again I need educate myself as I didn't know that. Please don't confuse transphobia with misunderstandings.

Fair enough. Be honest though, you made the same mistake as everyone else that pops up here for the first time shouting 'Why is MN transphobic'. And ran with it rather than read what is actually posted here before jumping in. It's a tactic the TRAs use.

@Collidascope

I haven't read the whole thread as I don't have time, but some quick points from reading your first post, OP.

1. Disagreeing with someone isn't hate. I disagree that trans women are women in the same way that I (an atheist) disagree that Orthodox Jews are "the chosen people." It doesn't mean I hate them. I just disagree with their estimation of themselves.

1. Male and female toilets are separate because, among other reasons, women are safer when they have their own spaces when it comes to being vulnerable - e.g. removing clothes. Males commit 98% of sex crimes and trans women offend at the same rate as other men. It's not about being trans-exclusionary. It's about being male-exclusionary.

1. Loos are the thing that get focussed on at the expense of other issues. Sports, refuges, prisons, hospital wards, women's clubs, changing rooms.

1. There's also the issue of free speech. If I say I think belief in God is a load of guff, I wouldn't expect to be sacked for that, even if it offends some people. And yet women have been sacked for saying they don't believe in gender ideology and won't use the terms associated with it. That should worry you no matter what you believe. You know, "first they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out..."

This is beautifully put. Yes. This.

By the way, OP, your first picture is of Buck Angel, who has been supportive of JK Rowling.

@AnyOldPrion

this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through.

Not sure why you think we haven’t. Traumatic experiences and mental illness are wholly irrelevant to which sex you are. If a gay man has been bullied relentlessly in male spaces, would you advocate for him to use women’s spaces too?

Also those currently claiming this trauma include cross-dressing men and transvestites. There was little objection from women when transsexual males were using our spaces, so then more and more men decided to jump on that bandwagon. At what point do women get to say “stop”? Or is that for men to decide?

Go through what? With the whole umbrella people need to ‘go through’ very very little. In Scotland the law has accommodated those who merely say ‘I’m a woman’ and no questions may be asked.

I appreciate everyone's response, and thank you. There's obviously some things I haven't considered and more pressing matters than who has periods and what bathroom people use. In an ideal world I suppose they would be male, female and a optional unisex bathroom anyone could use. (I am from the UK by the way).
I did read some of the more hateful threads are deleted so maybe those were the ones I came across and wrongly assumed it was a huge majority on this forum which obviously isn't the case as most of you have provided really helpful and insightful answers.
I promise I will educate myself more and look at pressing issues that threaten women as a women, it's correct that we shouldn't set ourselves on fire to keep someone else warm because over the last 100 and odd years we have fought hard for our rights and they shouldn't be taken away, I agree.
I will educate myself and who knows maybe my next post will be highly intelligent and well educated.

Thanks guys

@Mascotte

Your post together with the pervy pictures makes me feel uneasy.

Sorry, I didn't mean to cause any offence. They came up on a google search and wasn't intended to be "Pervy" in anyway.

When transactivists acknowledge and discuss autogynpehilia, I'll be all ears.

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

I was shown a plan for a new bar space by a manager. It had unisex toilets. 3 Self contained cubicles but within one room. I said I would feel Unsafe queuing in the one room waiting for a cubicle to become free. I would look behind as I walk into the cubicle. He said to me this gender stuff is too complicated. I was too scared to say anymore as I felt I would lose my job if I raised my concerns. That is why I’m fed up up. That women are being denied the opportunity to raise safety concerns when our gut feeling is shouting at us. We are told to move over and let the 0.01% of the population tell me to ignore my safety concerns and my years of being a woman.

If you want hateful just take a look on twitter. There’s a person with boobs and a penis posting a full frontal photo of themselves with an invitation to a names 78 year old woman to suck their you-know-what. Also a person offering to punch women.

OP kudos to you for sticking around and reading what people are writing.

A lot of people come to this debate with your opinion. I did, because like so many women, I am a kind person. I watched the film TransAmerica years ago and sat there feeling such empathy with trans women, who I considered incredibly vulnerable and genuinely born into the wrong body. I remember reading on here years ago 'trans women are men' and CRINGING - how could the women here be so blunt and mean. I so very nearly posted telling people they were transphobes Like you, I would have said I had zero problem with trans women using women's loos.

Anyway, I did a lot of reading here and changed my mind and it felt deeply uncomfortable at first but I don't feel uncomfortable anymore.

I DO have a problem sharing things like loos with trans women. If I walked into one fairly late at night at a service station or somewhere similar and I caught sight of a male body I would instinctively feel terrified and vulnerable. Even if the person inhabiting that male body was in fact a gentle, kind person who truly believed they had been born in the wrong body (although, do gentle kind people trample over the fears and boundaries of women and go into places where they will alarm people?). I don't want to go through life feeling more vulnerable having experienced sexual assault. I want to feel society cares about women like me who want sex segregation in certain places.

I do acknowledge a tiny minority of people have crippling gender dysphoria. I feel sympathy with those people but I don't want to completely restructure society to alleviate their distress, if in doing so we make vast numbers of women less safe. There are other ways of accommodating them. I also believe a huge number of 'trans' people actually just have fetishes around being seen as female and being sexually degraded in connection with that. The more you read about that, the more your eyes will open. No, I don't want to be kind to them, thank you very much and bullshit are they vulnerable.

I find the faux naivete of posters who start these threads and are 'keen to learn' or 'want to understand' tiresome.

I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat

and thats the issue I

can you help me understand
are you able to explain

@Kelcat9494

Thank you for taking the time to stick around and listen.

@ivykaty44

I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat

and thats the issue I

can you help me understand
are you able to explain

Again if I don't understand something and I am asking to see it from other people's views then I'm going to talk about myself and my experience with it. That doesn't mean I can't or won't understand other people's views on it and try and consider where they are coming from and think "oh I didn't see it like that before" unfortunately I don't have the capability to understand all situations from everyone's point of view and it's great other people can but that's why I asked.

The right to a same sex person doing your smear test or breast scan?

The right to a same sex person giving you a body search?

It's statements like this that really do confuse me. Looking at the pictures that op posted, women who ask for a female would be fine with the people in the first two pictures then? That makes just no sense at all to me. If you wanted a female to conduct an intimate exam you would not think that either of those were female would you?

Don't hate transpeople.

Just don't think their rights trump another groups rights.

It's very one sided over there on the far left. If you don't agree (not even allowed to discuss) then you're a TERF, cancelled, abused online.

It's very disturbing.

Forget the toilets.

Your 14 year old daughter changes for PE in the female changing rooms. Ok so far?

Another pupil at her school identifies as female but is male bodied. Again, all fine. Nobody has a problem with that.

That pupil needs to be treated with dignity and respect. We all agree this is needed.

But allowing that pupil to change in the female changing rooms, with no consideration for the female pupils. Not ok.

Female pupils being considered transphobic and of committing hate crimes if they object to this to changing alongside a male bodied pupil. Outrageous. Female pupils

Trans rights are needed, but they cannot be allowed to trample over hard won female rights.