Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

[Kelcat9494]

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

not sure why the fuck I still have a profile on this toxic site tbh! I like it on here but all the anti trans stuff is so weird - it's a real shame that this has taken over and it's pushing genuine users who want fucking parenting advice or support away!

This is feminist chat we don't tend to talk about prams or the best nappies to use on this part. There are plenty of other boards for that. We talk about what effects women and girls.

I'd like to see what you think of as anti trans. There are plenty of trans people who don't buy into the TRA line.

I think the really harmful thing here is telling (often) young or vulnerable people that are struggling to operate in a society that forces gender norms on them that they are in the wrong body. Gender norms are inherently sexist and based on the understanding that women should like pink and cooking and being submissive and a whole host of other things. (And obviously applies to men just as much).

Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being those things if you're a woman. There's also absolutely nothing wrong with liking those things if you're a man. Having a penis does not mean you can't enjoy those things or that you should transition so you can enjoy those things.

I agree with you on your point that genitals are usually kept private. Why are we encouraging vulnerable people to change themselves based on the fact that their genitals dont match what they enjoy doing or looking like or identifying as?

Surely a better world would be one where we got rid of those sexist, outdated gender norms and encouraged everyone to live as they see fit regardless of their sex?

I think you need to look into things a bit more. Even pink news had to correct their article to explain that in theory yes a man who has had no surgery no hormones etc could get a grc.

Take it up with stonewall. They are the ones who have expanded the umbrella so much it vasicalky includes everyone whilst simultaneously saying they can use whatever restroom they like.

Feminists defending their spaces that are enshrined in law is not the problem.

You need to be having a word with the activists who decided to get greedy and demand access to spaces they can be legally excluded from and threatening everyone who doesn't agree.

Do you not think if they had kept their mouths shut then then those who have fully transitioned and were so few as to not really be a problem would be in a better place right now?

Thats on them not us.

it's a real shame that this has taken over and it's pushing genuine users who want fucking parenting advice or support away!

Thats just not true is it. There so many topics for people to post in and to read. And looking at active there is a full range of issues and topics being posted about daily.

If you no longer like the site then leave it. There is a Flouncers corner you can post your departure message in.

Do you realise that the person in the left photograph is Buck Angel, who is very much aware that they are still biologically female? Considered a traitor to the trans community by some for having reasonable views on what is male and what is female...

@KaptenKrusty

not sure why the fuck I still have a profile on this toxic site tbh! I like it on here but all the anti trans stuff is so weird - it's a real shame that this has taken over and it's pushing genuine users who want fucking parenting advice or support away!

You can hide the FWR board, as can anyone who comes here for parenting advice but isn't interested in women's rights/disagrees with posts they read here.

Personally I came for the parenting & stayed for the feminism but you do you.

@KaptenKrusty have you actually got any experience of living with the TRA ideals? They're not even possible for them to live by because the normal trans people arent a problem. It is this growing number of mentally unwell individuals trying to force everything to conform to how they want to see the world

Much like you are doing by coming on to a feminist chat and demanding it is filled with parenting advice and pram recommendations because it doesnt fit your own agenda and ideals.

The vast majority of men just go into the toilet to pee.

The vast majority of men would never assault a transwoman.

So by their own rules of why the status quo should change, there's no reason.

And do you really think a bigot looking to bash a transwoman would let the sign on the women's toilet stop him? By their own rules being in the woman's toilets doesnt make them safer.

So its not about safety is it? It's about colonisation and ignoring women who say no. Same old misogny

Kelcat9494

you’ve cheered me up- usually people come on here, declare us transphobic and then flounce off when they realise that that’s not really the case! It’s a revelation to have this conversation with someone reasonable

and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you?

I'm happy to share my tampax supplies with any trans man who requires them. What with them biologically being women and possibly still requiring them.

I can't see any situation where it would be appropriate to share my tampax with a transwomen, because they are biologically male and will never have any requirement for sanitary products.

I'm not anti trans, I'm anti biological males appropriating womanhood and taking women's rights for themselves at the expense of women's sports, women's safety and women's dignity.

I don't care who I have a wee next to. But I have the empathy to recognise that other women can't have or don't want biological males in places that are supposed to be safe places for women.

Why does #bekind only apply to the thoughts and actions of biological women. Why can't others #bekind and understand some women's very easily understood concerns about this and support us in campaigning for ubiquitous unisex spaces in addition to single sex spaces. Surely that would make everyone happy... and if not why not?

I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault

No it's biological men's fault. As soon as transwomen can develop a watertight system to let us know which of them are genuinely transwomen and which of them are predatory men pretending to be transwomen then we can talk. Even then that doesn't change that many women CANNOT share spaces with biological men.

single sex spaces for women that want them.
Single sex spaces for men who want them.
Unisex spaces for people who don't care or need mixed sex spaces.

I don’t dislike trans at all. It has never been an issue in the past. But I don’t want my 12 year old daughter changing at a guide camp with a trans girl in the same room.

OP, you'll find consistently on FWR a belief that mixed sex third spaces should be made available. This would ensure trans people are not compelled to use spaces that they are uncomfortable in or feel unsafe in, as it's not right or ok that this should be the case for anyone. It would also ensure that female people who can only use single sex spaces have equal access to spaces they are not uncomfortable in and do not feel unsafe in, and are not excluded.

Everyone heard. Everyone's needs valued. Solutions found that meet everyone's best interests equally by addition of provision rather than removing provision from some to the benefit of others. Surely that's a truly progressive society?

I've just come off Twitter because I can't stand it at the moment, it's a respite area of thoughtfulness on here (helped by not having to stick to limited characters).

I just can't believe that people are trying to say that men are women and women are men. I can't believe it. But they really are - in law, policy, sports, universities, everything.

I agree with you that toilets are the least concerning issue of all, in the scheme of things. Which is why TRAs constantly harp on about it (that and because of the American context). I certainly would have ni issue at all with a transitioned colleague using the ladies at work, as I'd know them. Skanky men wandering in and standing there staring, knowing that you've got no practical redress? You think that wouldn't happen?

@MorrisZapp

Thanks for the nice pics. If those people are transgender they've obviously spent years and presumably tens of thousands of pounds on transforming their appearance, from an already genetically blessed baseline.

How many ordinary trans people present this way? Women can tell. Men will always look, sound, breathe and smell like men unless they go through extreme processes.

The photos were just to make the point of if you were worried about sharing a bathroom with a transgender woman and only biological women were allowed then I'd feel more uncomfortable walking out and seeing those two gentleman if I was inclined to that way of thinking whereas if I saw the woman I probably wouldn't notice as much, I appreciate not every trans person can "pass" but the ones I personally know can so maybe that's where my naivete has come from

Hi there. I’m a new contributor to this site but was brought to it by my horror at the vitriol directed at J K Rowling recently. I can’t speak for others but I would like to make it very clear that I don’t ‘hate’ anyone. I would defend a trans person like my own child if they were being bullied or harassed by reason only of their transgender status. However, I don’t agree with some of the arguments and aims of the transgender campaign / rights protesters. Disagreeing with someone doesn’t mean you hate them! Most of us learn this at primary school. I have been dismayed at the level of intellectual immaturity and lack of logical thought displayed by those screaming transphobia at those who disagree in any way with their views. It will not advance their cause.

There are a hell of a lot of 'I's in the OP.

Its almost as it if they haven't thought about it from another perspective or from the point of view of someone with a different life experience.

I can't understand why people can't put themselves in another persons shoes and are completely blind to why some people are more vulnerable or have life experience which makes them wary of certain situations that another wouldn't blink at.

There isn't hate here. Just an acknowledgement and understanding that there are some people who are more priviledged than others, and priviledge does not run along the lines of gender exclusively. There are some trans people who are a hell of a lot more priviledged than abused, poor women.

In other words, its a bit more complicated than the singular, narrow life experience of the OP who can't get past the word I.

The people in your opening post are still the sex they were born us.

Buck Angel has nearly died from the awful amount of surgery they have had.

Many women are petrified of their children being sterilised, on medication for life and retaining the genitals of children, unless they have life-threatening surgery. Trans ideology is being taught in schools.

Also, transgender ideology says that this person is a woman. They are a convicted paedophile and multiple rapist (they raped a pregnant woman), and this person was put in a female prison where they were subsequently convicted of sexually assaulting two women.

This should simply not be possible.

I don’t see any hate here .

There are a lot of considerations around dangerous predators piggybacking on self ID, the potential impact on women’s sport and child transitioning. I started a thread with a link to a blog where lawyers broke down the impact of the proposed SelfID on discrimination law which I found very interesting.

I am still trying to learn, so can I ask the regular posters here a question. It seems that the two main things GC women are told are “be kind” and “educate yourself”.... But then you look into all potential damage potential legislative changes can have on very vulnerable women and girls.

Is it the same posters that tells us to “be kind” and “educate ourselves”? They do seem quite mutually exclusive in the context they are used ?

Anyone?

As a long standing mumsnetter I think I can post more than 3 photos? But I’ve got stuff to do IRL so maybe just one screen shot. One of the photos in the OP is a transman who will have attracted considerable transphobia. I think this is Buck, an example here of Buck’s support for JK Rowling and her proposal to civilly discuss the impact of changes on women and girls.

If a safe, third space was created for transgender people in sports, bathrooms, changing rooms et al, i think you would find that transphobia does not exist at all, among feminists at least.

And don't use the pretty people as your gotcha.

Firstly, it's incredibly offensive to the majority of transpeople who struggle to pass.

Secondly it's incredibly offensive to women to pretend that the vast majority of transpeople are not clearly their natal sex.

In reality, the lucky few do get to use whatever toilets they like but it doesnt mean that women should ignore a millennia of inbuilt sex recognition instincts that evolved to keep us safe.

Ultimately it comes down to the difference between sex and gender and how this makes a difference in law and the detrimental effect on women in particular in how it facilitates a loss of rights and only expands the rights of trans women (and notably not trans men).

I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault

For gods sake. This is the level of the argument isn't it? Embarrassing.

Let's just dispense with laws altogether, including all safeguarding and DBS checks. Because these paedophiles committing crimes isn't the fault of the non-paedophiles is it.

@RedToothBrush

There are a hell of a lot of 'I's in the OP.

Its almost as it if they haven't thought about it from another perspective or from the point of view of someone with a different life experience.

I can't understand why people can't put themselves in another persons shoes and are completely blind to why some people are more vulnerable or have life experience which makes them wary of certain situations that another wouldn't blink at.

There isn't hate here. Just an acknowledgement and understanding that there are some people who are more priviledged than others, and priviledge does not run along the lines of gender exclusively. There are some trans people who are a hell of a lot more priviledged than abused, poor women.

In other words, its a bit more complicated than the singular, narrow life experience of the OP who can't get past the word I.

Of course I'm going to use I as I am the one trying to understand other people's opinions, I've already said they are things I didn't consider and have taken ownership of that and have said I will educate myself. Not sure where my "privilege" comes from, I just didn't deem it necessary to mention when discussing this topic.

Has anyone ever seen anything telling men to #bekind and stop being violent towards transwomen so they can feel comfortable using the toilets and leave the women’s toilets for women? No?

Could that be because it’s not really about feeling safe, it’s about validating their feelings and demanding acceptance from women. They want to play act being a woman and we’re not reading the script properly.