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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

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Jeeeez · 30/07/2020 11:18

I've been thru Jamie's JKRowling video with a fine tooth comb and it's jam packed with misrepresentations of the research they've put up, amongst many other things...arghhh!

Hopefully when we come out the other side of this we can have more more than International Women's Day. Pride get a month ffs....

highame · 30/07/2020 11:24

@Jeeeez I agree. I think we've been poor at International Women's day.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/07/2020 11:25

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

As my Nan would’ve said ‘Shy Kids Get No Sweets’.

highame · 30/07/2020 11:25

This ought to be on a new topic but it's nice to stamp our womanly feet all over our topics

FloralBunting · 30/07/2020 11:40

Jamie is, imo, quite a dangerously influential person. The videos are breezy and friendly, they do cod-science thing of allude to a study with a long link flashed on screen, Jamie is all smiles and presents everything in the garden as rosy and appealing.

Scratch the surface even the tiniest bit and you realize that drastic surgeries are causing Jamie problems, Jamie has a (deliberately cultivated, imo) shallow understanding of the views Jamie misrepresents, and like I said before, the insecurity keeps leaping off the screen each video. Yes, Jamie is one of the better 'passing' FTMs, because Jamie was always tall, but I think it's fairly obvious that even Jamie is dimly aware that it's all a but smoke and mirrors, and the scoffing at "Me? A lesbian?!" is more painful each time they do it. I still feel for them a bit, but as always, my sympathy is limited when you are an influential evangelist for the cause.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/07/2020 12:03

The videos of Jamie with Jamie’s big brother are particularly revealing - there seems to be some kind of deep seated wish to become the brother (perhaps motivated by self loathing, internalised lesbophobia, sibling rivalry, parental favouritism etc) which combined with falling in love (at a very young age by contemporary standards) with a young woman whose parents held deeply culturally conservative/religious view re: homosexuality and Jamie’s own super liberal parents who seem to have not questioned the trans narrative much at all (perhaps due to devaluing girls/women, hence the brother-envy) adds up to unhealthy state of deep denial and a constant need to validate one’s own choices - hence all the disingenuous straw man arguments in the videos.

My father was a compulsive liar who completely lost touch with what was real and what was one of his self-invented ‘histories’ - I suspect the root cause was childhood neglect resulting in a disordered personality (no one actually bothered to even register his birth, he eventually did it himself as an adult).
Women on here often say that they recognised the harmfulness of trans activism because it was so similar to their experiences of abusive relationships, just on a group scale rather than a personal one.
I have a similar sense of recognition re: people in deep denial - both Jamie and Suzie Green give me the SHIVERS - they are people who have told themselves so many untruths that they can no longer do anything but tell more because otherwise the whole house of cards will fall on top of them. The unconscious urge for self protection is so strong that they actually believe the things they say.

A massive reality crash is coming for both of them eventually.

I can imagine both ending up in lawsuits, they are massive contributors to the rise in ROGD, in the U.K. and beyond.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 12:53

@Jeeeez

I've been thru Jamie's JKRowling video with a fine tooth comb and it's jam packed with misrepresentations of the research they've put up, amongst many other things...arghhh!

Hopefully when we come out the other side of this we can have more more than International Women's Day. Pride get a month ffs....

Month? Last year we had flags along Tottenham court from from June until the start of the new uni term (so what, September??).

IWD has one day and stonewall recommend that day to to promote them to get stonewall points (or something).

Dekalog · 30/07/2020 20:26

It’s not you as an individual that threatens the political struggles of homosexual people, it’s the ideology that claims to be for you (and transgender people in general) which seeks to remove the ‘sex’ part of homosexuality and instead recasts homosexuality as ‘same gender attraction’.

As any good second-waver will tell you, the personal is the political.

The use of the word 'ideology' is ideological in itself. There wasn't any 'gender ideology' involved in my conscious realisation at seven and my development at the age of 9-12 because I wasn't on YouTube being 'indoctrinated' from 1969-1978, nor was I under any form of treatment. Please don't throw highly-disputable and glib pre-packaged statements around, nor do you speak for any gay men and women I know.

We don't even know what consciousness or a gestalt identity actually is. And I haven't read anything on any side that would qualify as a theory, but I'm seeing a lot of highly-contested frameworks and hypotheses, so when discouraged, I'm left wondering whether the underlying driving 'theories' in this larger ongoing struggle are actually the Horseshoe Theory and the Overton Window.

My preferred approach here, specifically in this space and overall broader discussion, is to read a few key threads, also get a sense check of the vibe, tone and energies, do some self-directed reading elsewhere and let things roll over for a while before I even consider posting. Recognising besieged and maximally staked-out positions and feelings on all sides, I'm not here to change anyone's mind or trade hit-and-run barbs or quips.

Putting the proposed legislative and policy discussion to one side for a moment, many of the gender critical arguments I've seen so far have a far longer history than the last 10-15 years, so I find it personally helpful to revisit and get a grounding in some of the foundational precepts as expressed at the time, and how they've evolved. Sometimes, the original is better than the sequel.

Thanks for provided video clips, though. Video is great for certain types of content, but I prefer to digest longer-form pieces where arguments are clearly laid out. As well as relating personal experiences and reading those of others, I'm more interested in deeper dives into medical, legal, political and academic perspectives. What a public figure – celeb, columnist, author or script-writer – might express is always a far more subjective, editorially-minded view.

So instead, yesterday afternoon, I read an interview with the LGB Alliance founders on Quillette, which at least, was relatively unfiltered. Some of their points, in my opinion, were partially persuasive, but in places didn't correspond to mine or other's experience. In the long run, analysis and examination of policy is critical to all sides. But that's fine, no-one has a monopoly on the truth.

I then sunk into a couple of pieces on this broader topic featuring second wave figures incl. Mary Daly and Andrea Dworkin (no iron-clad consensus there), as well as evolving strands in the third wave. Quickly picked up that Reddit closed their gender critical forum, but also had time to dip into two other relevant pieces, one from Marcus Evans at Tavistock describing his resignation, and another legal piece from gender critical perspective in policy in Canada to tighten up on loopholes, which was the clearest sign of achieving a small degree of and moving things forward.

My experience of GID services has been primarily at Charing Cross where some elements of the process raised an eyebrow, which I'm happy to expand on at some later point, if it's interesting or helpful for anyone. All I'll add is that my long-standing approach to not engage with the broader trans 'community' and carve out my own path, adhering to accepted best practice, has worked well for me. Incidentally, I've removed my name from the national cervical screening programme, which wasn't as straightforward as anticipated, but given my age, still need to attend breast screening. JoBloggs7765974 on Twitter might imagine they need a pap smear, but they're a deluded nuisance, to put it charitably.

Although I'm not convinced about self-id and clearly see flaws, quite frankly, at the outer edges of gender critical positions, some of these views represent a considerable threat to those of us where key ID documentation (e.g. passports) is vital to travel, live and work. Indulging in online performative cruelty – shoehorning loosely-considered implications into a theoretical feminist framework – and thereby bolstering in-group credentials, isn't remotely persuasive if you'd like your views to gain wider traction.

I'm going to move onto other commitments for a while. My MacBook Pro has just decided to pop its battery, damaging the case and needs to go in for a repair on Tues, so I'm going to be offline, finishing projects and backing stuff up. Thanks again to those who wrote some quality posts in this thread –its food for thought. But for all of us, no matter what's in your knickers or between your legs, it's been a challenging time since March. I've had three friends of friends die since then.

On a closing note, the random and amateurish armchair psychological diagnoses and assessments about individuals on YouTube – while undoubtedly cathartic to express – are an embarrassment and an affront to any notion of what genuine social activism is.

Have a good weekend everyone. Stay cool, stay safe.

Gurufloof · 30/07/2020 20:50

Dreeple

I have no hatred for “trans people

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them

Same, much as they may think they're special, they ain't really.
And dekalog also as lovely as I'm sure they are irl, not special at all. It's the same shite different packaging.
Absolutely everything they posted as some kind of gotcha is not even a percent of what most women go through, from such a young age too.

FloralBunting · 30/07/2020 21:27

I take any assessments of my negative views about the YouTubers who influenced my mentally unwell daughter with the same contempt with which they are offered to me.

Portnlemon · 30/07/2020 21:53

Well that's us told.

Yada yada, what's in anyone's pants, you're all indulging in cruelty, I want a passport. Your all an embarrassment, sign off with a hip down with the kids cringe.

OvaHere · 30/07/2020 22:09

I do love it when we women get told off with overly verbose pomposity. Luckily for us it's a longstanding occurrence on the feminism board!

highame · 30/07/2020 22:31

They do like to play a long game. I think they have a competition about who can get the thread to go on for the longest. I think they spend all day or days planning and putting stuff together. They play in packs is my guess. Things always start the same.

*Dreeple

I have no hatred for “trans people

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them* I think this is succinct😁

Datun · 30/07/2020 23:26

I do love it when we women get told off with overly verbose pomposity

You have more commitment than me. I didn't get beyond paragraph three.

I'll say one thing for most of the women on here, at least they can lay claim to a modicum of communication skill.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 30/07/2020 23:32

As any good second-waver will tell you, the personal is the political.

Sure, but you are deploying ] that phrase arse backwards. Feminists took the personal (division of labour in the home, for example) and made who does the housework/childcare/work beyond the home a societal discussion, not something that was simply decided between two individuals, a husband and wife.
Here, we are talking about the big picture regards transactivism attempting to erase biological sex from law, and thus homosexuality from legal protection, and you’ve come along and gone ‘Well I’mnot doing that

I chose to use the word ‘ideology’ because there are plenty of trans people that don’t want to remove biological sex from law, but nonetheless there is an activist push to do so - those activists are attempting to push their beliefs (that ‘gender’ is more important than ‘sex’) on the rest of society, so what is that if not an ideology?

It’s a ‘Queer Theory‘ Frankenstein’s monster that escaped the university and ran amok amongst various public institutions - but I don’t really care much what we call it - as long as the law can’t compel me to call it anything I know not to be true.

On a closing note, the random and amateurish armchair psychological diagnoses and assessments about individuals on YouTube – while undoubtedly cathartic to express – are an embarrassment and an affront to any notion of what genuine social activism is.

U OK HUN? 🙊🙄😂

Portnlemon · 30/07/2020 23:51

Even Stonewall have been forced to concede that the elaborate, rickety self refererential construction of gender identity belief can't be forced on people. A lot of it is quite laughable and worse, from the perspective of parents here, dangerous.

The new chief executive of Stonewall has sought to defuse the increasingly toxic row over transgender rights, telling the Observer that her organisation would no longer seek to persuade its critics to accept its views on gender.

“I’m really focused on the idea that we don’t have to convert everybody to our way of understanding gender,” Nancy Kelley said in her first interview since taking up the position as head of the UK’s leading gay rights charity.

“For Stonewall to succeed, it doesn’t have to make people believe as it believes. What it has to do is make people support changes that make trans lives easier.”

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/27/stonewall-new-boss-gender-transgender-rights-nancy-kelley

By all means make lives easier Nancy, but that's not what Stonewall has started and you are completely unable to recover your innocence from the conversion therapy you have rammed down everyone's throats.

ALittleBitofVitriol · 31/07/2020 00:08

@Datun

I do love it when we women get told off with overly verbose pomposity

You have more commitment than me. I didn't get beyond paragraph three.

I'll say one thing for most of the women on here, at least they can lay claim to a modicum of communication skill.

Pfft, I just scroll past all the me-me-me-ing, trying to guess how many paragraphs of waffling this time.

Those walls of text are just so boring.

Datun · 31/07/2020 00:08

“For Stonewall to succeed, it doesn’t have to make people believe as it believes. What it has to do is make people support changes that make trans lives easier.”

Well, I for one cannot wait for them to start telling people that one of the changes is that they no longer believe in homosexuality.

TehBewilderness · 31/07/2020 01:22

I am guessing the reason that Stonewall has lost money the past three years is that the changes the leadership made were not viewed as inclusive by the Lesbian, Gay, & Bisexual donors they no longer appear to represent.

highame · 31/07/2020 08:04

Although the new chief exec is making conciliatory noises, my distrust is too great. I believe that even if Stonewall rolls back I will still feel they are just playing a waiting game until the smoke clears and then will be back to stealth and misinterpretation of the law.

I don't think anything has been said about misrepresentation, that's a court case in the wings

ScrimpshawTheSecond · 31/07/2020 08:08

we don’t have to convert everybody to our way of understanding gender,” Nancy Kelley said

Convert. Interesting choice of words.

BaronEssoStation · 31/07/2020 08:35

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them.

That's a messy job; have you washed your hands?

SerenityNowwwww · 31/07/2020 08:38

Glitter - the devils dust.

highame · 31/07/2020 08:40

🤣🤣

Portnlemon · 31/07/2020 08:46

Despite Stonewall admitting that they can't get everyone to convert it seems the already converted politicians are not going to recognise this and are going to carry on preaching oblivious to this volte face.

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