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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trying to understand the hate trans people get on here.

709 replies

Kelcat9494 · 05/07/2020 11:35

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
ArcheryAnnie · 09/07/2020 22:58

@Pepper70

I should add, that in theory I don't have a problem with gender neutral toilets, if they had wash hands basin inside the cubicle and if they are situated off corridors on open space. Lots of offices in central London are like this - big long corridor, open at either end, with a bank of toilets down one side, all self contained. I really don't have a problem with that. It's the cubicles then then lead in to the hand washing area with another door somewhere that goes back out to communal areas that gives me concern.
I've got a problem with these in public areas because too many men leave the cubicle doors open. I don't care if they do this because they are lazy, or if it's because they are flashers, I still don't want to see it.

Maybe they don't in swish offices, but they do elsewhere, especially if it's not a high-traffic area.

deepwatersolo · 11/07/2020 07:41

I just read the article about what women vs what men do to protect themselves, that a PP posted here and it has made me think. (Also, the posts where PPs describe/envy their partners‘ carelessness).

Clearly, this fear takes away one‘s freedom in a way. At the same time, I think males, particularly underage boys, underestimate the risks they face. I have to say, I do raise my son to be rather aware of such risks (public toilet...). Is that wrong? He is more fearful than his peers. Maybe I‘m taking something away from him there. Idk.

Women and girls are certainly more at risk than males, but I sometimes feel that the difference in perception (and consequently the attitude we go through life) goes way beyond the actual difference in numbers.

(Sorry for the tangent, and yes, I want sex segregated toilets, for the obvious reasons stated on this thread).

Howzaboutye · 11/07/2020 08:39

Hi OP.
What an interesting thread to read. I was of the same position as you about a year ago. Then I listened to all the points that have been made on this thread.

It makes me sad the entrenched misogeny in our culture.

Stick around and keep learning though.

Bananabixfloof · 13/07/2020 17:21

Maybe they don't in swish offices, but they do elsewhere, especially if it's not a high-traffic area

I can tell you it makes no difference how fancy or crappy or high/low traffic area. They leave the doors open and the loos a complete pissy shitty mess.
I mean when the womens loo is in a state then it's bad, but usually a reason for it (sudden period/miscarriage/morning sickness)

From a cleaner of high and low end bogs.

12boo · 15/07/2020 13:38

@Bananabixfloof

Maybe they don't in swish offices, but they do elsewhere, especially if it's not a high-traffic area

I can tell you it makes no difference how fancy or crappy or high/low traffic area. They leave the doors open and the loos a complete pissy shitty mess.
I mean when the womens loo is in a state then it's bad, but usually a reason for it (sudden period/miscarriage/morning sickness)

From a cleaner of high and low end bogs.

There's also an increased chance if hiding a camera
Dekalog · 29/07/2020 01:08

After an unpromising beginning, this thread has turned out to be quite informative for those new to this issue and forum. Thanks all to those who took the time to write so clearly about many aspects and nuances of their concerns and the overall political landscape. It took over an hour to read through and although I skimmed a few posts, I also read a few posts a couple of times over, particularly @Ramblingwords comprehensive post on page 11 of this thread which is just gold. I wished I could snip quote or easily link to the post, but perhaps I've missed a button/function on this board.

Anyway, I came here originally to get a sense of the shape of the larger debate, followed by belatedly tuning into much of what's been happening on Twitter. I don't engage a great deal on Twitter, especially on trans matters. For me, it can often feel a corrosive, unilluminating timesink, unless discussing professional topics and its been helpful in that regard. For those of us who fully medically and surgically transitioned some years ago, and are just leading fairly conventional lives, it's been helpful to obtain a nuanced picture by coming here and finding a few substantive threads to read.

It's true. I don't have that childhood formation or experience of structural oppression as a young girl, but like other women, I've faced down unwelcome behaviour, been patronised, fought like hell for comparative pay, undermined at work, told to smile, told once to wear a sari (!), had my breasts stared at, sworn at for being a complete bitch... and assaulted at night, in the street, by some pissed bloke in his 30s, just a couple of hundred yards from the flat. I've been asked at least a dozen times why I don't have kids, to which the only honest reply is that I was unable to have them, which usually ends the conversation. I stopped wearing makeup in my 40s unless for certain meetings or occasions, and when not at work, muck around – like many of us – in trackies, jeans and t-shirts. These are shared overlapping experiences... which is ultimately, is all we have as humanity.

Some of the intrusive and disturbing behaviour that others here have described here across a range of places, platforms, spaces and activities sounds absolutely horrific... and I can only apologise for those who have hurt people in the past. In some people's eyes, I may be lumped in under some sprawling trans umbrella term, but these are not people I personally communicate or associate with. My friends are mostly (biological) women, and some gay couples scattered across London and the world. I'm close to my sisters who live abroad... but the idea which I've read elsewhere on this forum, that as a transwoman, I represent some kind of overarching apocalyptic threat to gay men and lesbian women and their political struggles, is going to take a while to absorb and reflect on – especially to understand how this particular hypothesis is formulated. Slippery slope arguments aren't always persuasive.

There are a couple of comments buried deep in this thread I can't currently find and may come back to in another post. Someone asked why we can't monitor and influence our own 'community', someone touched on cancer and there was another long well-intentioned post buried in there somewhere which could do with a revisit.

Thanks again.

MsSafina · 29/07/2020 11:15

let men into women's toilets
This is already happening with the trend for unisex facilities.

MrGHardy · 29/07/2020 19:26

@Kelcat9494

Hello,

Firstly I want to say I am not attacking anyone on this forum and I expect the same respect as we are all entitled to an opinion and I am genuinely interested in the reasons why transgender people get so much hate on here:

Firstly I see a lot about not wanting to share bathrooms with trans women as it's a women's safe space - I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know. The only thing we'd share is the sinks and I don't see a problem with that really. I did read a post about a abuse survivor not wanting to the share the bathroom with someone with a penis (I'm really sorry that the person went through the abuse but that isn't trans people's fault, the fault is with the abuser alone) but in reality a trans person is more at risk in the bathroom and you have no idea whether they are pre op or post op as again in the bathrooms I've been in we don't show each other our genitalia. They are genuinely just doing their human business in the same room as you so don't understand the problem, actually I suppose people are afraid some odd men would use being transgender as an excuse to use the woman's bathroom but that's not trans women's fault also by this logic if we don't want trans women in the bathroom then we should have transmen in there (either pre op or post op), I've posted some pictures below of transmen and woman, would you really want the trans women in men's bathroom and the transmen in the womens?? (I can only post three but you get my point).

I know JKRowling posted about periods and a lot of people jumped on it to say only women have periods and whatever, this isn't true though is it? Some biological women aren't able to have periods or carry a pregnancy or be able to give birth so if we don't see that as a problem as we recognise it's a biological issue then why is trans-men having a period a problem and trans women not having one an issue? And who actually cares? There's enough tampax to go around, maybe let's focus on making them free for women and transmen as I for one is sick of paying for a "luxury item" I need every month due to no fault of my own.

I can't think of anymore off the top of my head that's been posted but anything in the comments I'm happy to reply to but I genuinely think this forum needs to consider what transgender people actually go through, imagine not feeling like you're in the right body, being attacked and hated for who you are and it's obviously not for fun and games because transgender people actually commit suicide over the issues they face remember #bekind and really think how sharing a bathroom or sharing a tampax would affect you? I don't think you'd kill yourself over it.

" I don't really understand this because to be honest when I'm sat in the cubicle doing my business, I don't think about the persons genitals next to me, it's all very private as you know"

Then why do transwomen need to be in the women's? Why do women not get to think about who is next to them, but transwomen do?

highame · 29/07/2020 19:36

@MsSafina

*let men into women's toilets* This is already happening with the trend for unisex facilities.
Unisex doesn't mean Women's, it means Unisex!
AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/07/2020 20:15

I wish you were right; but I have seen several what-had-been-women's lavatory facilities being renamed as "unisex" lavatory facilities, which seems to me to be letting men into women's toilets, really quite obviously and literally; strangely, men's lavatories in the same buildings generally seem to remain men's lavatories and to be so labelled. The only exception to this I have so far seen was in a hotel in Harrogate, where signs had been put in place by a convention asserting that all the lavatories were for anyone to use. (These signs were removed by the staff after the convention was over and the ladies reverted to being the ladies, the gents the gents.)

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2020 20:18

Hello Dekalog

What a considered and eloquent post. It's a good thread and I'm glad it was helpful.

Please remember that most of the women here object to the ideology, rather than the individual, especially how it affects children and girls, and especially medically, and how it's changing laws which were always there to safeguard women. Re defining women means a re definition of woman in law and we don't consent to that.

The 'break it down for me thread,' linked a couple of times here, is also good.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/07/2020 20:23

Regarding unisex toilets, Covid rules are challenging for schools around toilets.

To try to meet them a lot of primary schools are making the loos unisex, unaware of the laws around single sex toilets from age 8. Where there's a room with several cubicles in.

I saw a long thread in a senior leaders fb group, where a good many had no idea and had made loos unisex.

Luckily there were a few who knew the law inside out 🤔probably hang out here a lot!

Manderleyagain · 29/07/2020 20:34

Dekalog Thanks really interesting post. As far as I know the way to quote previous posts is just to copy and paste.

Thanks OP for making this thread. I hope you found it positive in the end.

undergroundoverit · 29/07/2020 20:53

@Manderleyagain

Dekalog Thanks really interesting post. As far as I know the way to quote previous posts is just to copy and paste.

Thanks OP for making this thread. I hope you found it positive in the end.

There's a quote function now, for everyone (not just Premium subscribers) - if you're on the app, just swipe the post to the left and hit the Quote button.
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 29/07/2020 23:19

but the idea which I've read elsewhere on this forum, that as a transwoman, I represent some kind of overarching apocalyptic threat to gay men and lesbian women and their political struggles

It’s not you as an individual that threatens the political struggles of homosexual people, it’s the ideology that claims to be for you (and transgender people in general) which seeks to remove the ‘sex’ part of homosexuality and instead recasts homosexuality as ‘same gender attraction’.

I’m sure you can see how insulting that is to people who have only recently gotten the right to marry their same sex partners (and how damaging it is to those people in other countries who are yet to achieve this right).

m.youtube.com/watch?v=AUjXIaVgrC0

m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xJJiPjHVSg

MsSafina · 29/07/2020 23:21

I am wondering how long it will be before reference to breast or ovarian cancer are removed as "offensive" and whether women- sorry, sorry, sorry - womxn, will be able to get any treatment for female related problems.

Manderleyagain · 29/07/2020 23:28

Undergroundoverit thanks! I don't use the app but will have a fiddle.

Dreeple · 29/07/2020 23:36

I have no hatred for “trans people.”

I don’t give a glitter-rolled shit about them.

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 08:33

Im trying time understand the amount of hate women get, well most places - and our lack of flags, parades, pinkified logos, advertised allies, posters, badges, demos and lobby groups (in schools, business, politics and National Rail Scotland...) 🤔

highame · 30/07/2020 09:36

@SerenityNowwwww

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

We have been way way too passive for far too long. It really is time to get our arses into gear. I've had enough.

I used to be reasonable until this shit show and now I don't just want tiny little bits of compromise - NO BLOODY THANKS, I want a massive roll back.

Protections and rights yes but not ever at my expense

nepeta · 30/07/2020 09:58

[quote highame]@SerenityNowwwww

Interesting phrase used on the radio today 'People who demand more, get more'

We have been way way too passive for far too long. It really is time to get our arses into gear. I've had enough.

I used to be reasonable until this shit show and now I don't just want tiny little bits of compromise - NO BLOODY THANKS, I want a massive roll back.

Protections and rights yes but not ever at my expense[/quote]
That gave me nice cold shivers down my spine.

FloralBunting · 30/07/2020 10:00

That video from Jamie has got to be the most jam-packed with deliberate misunderstandings and lies than they've ever managed before.

I mean, sure, you can say, over and over, that LGB rights are not affected by T demands, but if you also say that same sex attraction is an irrelevance and it's all about 'same gender' attraction and that LGB people should be shamed for thinking sex is relevant to sexuality, not gender, then you've contradicted yourself within the space of about a minute...

If I had nothing else to do, I think I'd like to transcribe Jamie's video and go through it point by point because I think it's a masterclass in lies, misrepresentation, deliberate obfuscation and a whole heap of of insecurity (Yeah, Jamie, keep asking if anyone can look at you and see anything other than a self-loathing lesbian on T. I'm sure the more incredulous the tone you put into the question, the more it won't be trueHmm)

SerenityNowwwww · 30/07/2020 10:35

Squeaky wheel gets the oil. I remember reading some research where they studied the children who survived during famines as it was the ones who yelled blue bloody murder, possibly because those who didn’t were either not as desperately ill or just too weak and beyond saving.

Be the squeaky wheel.

Howzaboutye · 30/07/2020 10:35

Look up Emma Nicolson on twitter. She is recruiting to get this steam roller stopped.
We have to do this for us and our daughters

highame · 30/07/2020 10:45

@Howzaboutye

Look up Emma Nicolson on twitter. She is recruiting to get this steam roller stopped. We have to do this for us and our daughters
Already signed up and doing my bit. Already had a reply from Assistant Director in charge of Education and Inclusion. Just waiting for more input before response. Also in communication with County Councillors etc. Local Councillors next. Get going, it's a heavy load but it's beginning to shift