Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

@Ginnyhip46

Again I’ve not read the whole thread but I just wanted to add my perspective and experience as an Indian woman, my only allies have been white women and men. But I have experienced racism from all colours.

I grew up in London at an all white school. A White boy called Christopher became my best friend and pretty much spent his entire childhood defending me against racist bullies, even getting his teeth smashed out when he was 12 after some boys rounded on me at an ice rink Calling me “Dirty Paki” they kicked him to the ground Instead if me and he ended up having to go to hospital to get his teeth all turned into crowns on posts.

I received racism from Indians who thought I should stay in my box and know my place, and called me names like “black bitch chasing after a bag of sugar” for having white friends and a white boyfriend.

I received racism from white men and women too many times to count.

But often if I was on the bus and someone was swearing at me, a white man or woman would vocally stand up to them, ask if I was ok, help get the person removed from the bus, and this happened more than once. I feel like bus racism is the one I get the most, even when I used to be travelling with my little girl. I would say this happened around 20- 30 times on various buses over the course of my life.

I experience racism and sexism in exactly the same way. I can’t speak to what others perceive trumps one over the other. I feel it both in the same way. Bullying and prejudice happen because of the way I look to others. I look like a woman therefore men have sexually assaulted me.
I look like an Indian therefore men and women of all colours have called me namesIncluding a black woman who once started screaming at me that I was a Terrorist Witch. Usually I get a combination of both. Usually I sit near the driver on a bus now. I also learned the trick of standing up in my seat and quoting Shakespeare loudly at the insult thrower which makes them think I am batshit crazy and worry I might go loco. I think I learned this Act more crazy technique from Mel Gibson in the Lethal Weapon films.

But to me the experience feels the same. In a way I have been able to explain to white female friends what racism feels like by saying this. And my friends have understood.

My friend who got his teeth knocked out, you’ll be pleased to know he grew up to have a lovely wife and child. I recently wrote a poem about him to show to his son.

I'm so sorry, Ginny.

I'm a bus person too, and I agree that it's one of the places outright racism seems to happen frequently. I've seen bus drivers refuse to allow on Muslim women with prams, while as a white woman, I was never refused entry (and I used buses daily).

I'm glad you have good friends.

Buses are just metal boxes on wheels where hecklers talk crap. When I got called the Terrorist Witch, I stood up and hissed at the woman whilst making the Vulcan sign with my hand and she backed down. I think the other people on the bus were thinking “Who are these crazy foreigners?”

@Ginnyhip46

Buses are just metal boxes on wheels where hecklers talk crap. When I got called the Terrorist Witch, I stood up and hissed at the woman whilst making the Vulcan sign with my hand and she backed down. I think the other people on the bus were thinking “Who are these crazy foreigners?”

I love this image ♥️

@HeistSociety

It's not great. But my question was about responding to emotion.

I think it's ok to want to respond emotionally in a way that expresses an empathetic understanding of significant pain in another person AND it's ok to strongly critique CRT.

But maybe the critique of CRT doesn't meet the need to be seen and acknowledged as someone impacted by racism first.

Idk.

I sometimes think this is a personality thing. I often feel very uncomfortable when people ask me to respond in that kindof way, especially if I don't know them. I struggle with what to say, no matter what the subject is.

This isn't a totally bad thing IMO, I can be quite good at listening and giving a very calm response that deescalates emotion whe someone is activly upset.

But when people want affirmation about statements in other situation, or when it seems that involves agreeing with something I have real doubts about - I don't know. I've never been that sort of support only person.

I'm that type of person too, goosefoot.

Im quite alexithymic (spelling?) and for myself, I had a real sense that what I was missing - what was fuelling the anger - had an emotional valence I wasn't receiving. So I wanted to fix that in myself, because ultimately, I don't want to upset people through my own flaws.

I don't see it as akin to affirmation. I don't affirm CRT - well, a bit, probably. Idk. I am literally ineloquent on all emotions, so I may not have made much sense.

I just wanted to add some thoughts about the appropriation of the sacred ways of indigenous peoples by white perverts and predators.

The below archived webpage from a Deer Tribe website includes the following text;

"Our sexuality is a natural expression of who we are; it is our soul force. It gives us our identity as human beings."

"A baby, in its seventh month in the womb, starts to pleasure itself in order to rotate so it can move down the birth canal properly. At birth it will play with its genitals to soothe its body. But when its parents slap its hands or remove them from its genitals, the child armors. It is like metal plating, a heaviness brought about as a reaction to pain physical and spiritual pain that slows it down and makes it dysfunctional."

The accompanying text is basically equating not allowing children to play with their genitals with “rape of he spirit”. I am familiar with these kinds of claims and discourses from past experience of reading material at work that I later discovered was from the PIE.

Interested readers can check the whole article for themselves here:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150604201538/www.dtmms.org/?page=rop_why_need" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20150604201538/www.dtmms.org/?page=rop_why_need

In this page a 12 year old describes their experience of a Deer Tribe rite of passage

""Rites of Passage, to me, is the most rewarding ceremony a teen can have. As I read in Star Warrior: The Story of SwiftDeer recently, you are truly blessed to go through this change in your earlier years. This ceremony celebrates the transition from childhood into adulthood. In this ceremony, you emerge from your child self and enter your adult self. Well, at least you try to do both completely. Sometimes, you get stuck in the middle. Rites of Passage is the initiation into the unknown. It's exciting, but at times, it's pretty scary. You don't know if you're going to be able to do everything you want to do. "Along with Rites of Passage comes responsibility. Rites of Passage is going to open up so many doors for me that have been closed in the past. I believe that with this ceremony I will become more connected with Great Spirit. This will be a truly awakening experience for me personally. I have also been praying for a Pipe. I feel that I should go through my Rites and know myself before receiving a Pipe. I think that going through Rites of Passage will introduce me to a new world spiritually.”"

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20150604203220/www.dtmms.org/?page=rop_experiences#four" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20150604203220/www.dtmms.org/?page=rop_experiences#four

A ver clear indication of child sexual abuse within the Deer Tribe can be seen via this link:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20130429120045/ssl113.alentus.com/visionaryaudiovideo/vis-cart-item.asp?id=711" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20130429120045/ssl113.alentus.com/visionaryaudiovideo/vis-cart-item.asp?id=711

I possess a copy of Harley Reagan's (aka Thunder Strikes aka Swift Deer aka Gunnie) so called “memoir” Star Warrior: The Story of SwiftDeer , a work of fiction in which he portrays his own depraved paedophile fantasies as real ancient Cherokee secret rites of passage. He claims to have been sexually initiated into secret Cherokee sexual rituals as a minor by a much older female.

The Cherokee hate the Deer Tribe with vengeance and who can blame them? They have endured cultural and actual genocide and some perverted old white man turns up and creates a child abusing, prostitution promoting sex cult and claims it is all ancient Cherokee wisdom. After Wilma Mankiller (RIP) then spokeswoman for the Cherokee Nation threatened to sue him he changed his tune and claimed that his sexual ceremonies were based on a mix of Mayan and other traditions including extra-terrestrials. Well he would say that wouldn’t he?

When I have a moment I will scan some pages from Reagan’s disgusting book and post them here so that readers can be in no doubt as to the vile nature of this cult. The pages in the book describe non-existent / fake Cherokee sexual rituals involving the sexual abuse of minors by adults. THEY ARE NOT REAL CHEROKEE CEREMONIES.

As for "Rev Goddess" Charmaine - I cannot speak about whether she is a good or bad woman. There is a video on Kenneth Ray Stubbs’s Vimeo channel that I linked to earlier in which he interviews Charmaine and they claim to have been friends for over 15 years. If true this is extremely troubling.

It may be that she is a vulnerable woman from an ethnic minority who has been brainwashed and is being taken advantage of in all kinds of ways by a white supremacist cult. I suspect that this is the case, however, as with all cults involved in sex trafficking, there is a significant category of people who are both victims and perpetrators. This was the case with NXIVM, with the Children of God, with Jeffrey Epstein’s vile network and with many other cults known to me that use this MO (and there are many of them).

In my experience of people who get involved in cults like the Deer Tribe, they are usually extremely vulnerable people; many are traumatised, lonely, broken hearted, struggling with their sexuality or with substance abuse, bereaved or otherwise vulnerable. Some are struggling with oppression due to racism, disability, being neuro-atypical or for some other reason. Unfortunately those same vulnerable people go on to recruit more vulnerable people and the poison spreads through vulnerable populations exactly like a virus does.

Apologies for the derail also for not contributing more towards the thread, I am exhausted, facing multiple challenges in real life and very pushed for time.

I've not read the whole thread. I want to respond to the OPs question

Can white women be allies? I fucking hope so.

I realise that as a white woman there is lots I don't and can't understand. I will do my best to listen and learn.

The place where I live is not very diverse and there are more women who are white but from different ethnic backgrounds living here.

They must have a different experience again.

Within my family I have a two family members with black heritage and a sister with Indian heritage all "pass" as white. They are 1/4 black or Indian respectively.

The place where I live is not very diverse

This makes it sound like a moral failing. Is it just white people in majority white countries who are obliged to talk and think like this?

@Antibles

The place where I live is not very diverse

This makes it sound like a moral failing. Is it just white people in majority white countries who are obliged to talk and think like this?

I think so.

The concentration of ethnic diversity varies - big cities will have a much larger proportion compared to a small, rural town. Yet many white people, predominantly women, seem to feel great guilt over this, even though they live in a white majority country and therefore it shouldn't be surprising to anyone that there will be many areas and regions that don't have much ethnic diversity.

That's pretty much been my thinking about where I live, who I am.

But it has usually earned me gobbets of vitriol in response. Which kind of puts paid to anything I, as a white woman, feels able to do - and I suspect one specific poster will come back to berate me some more for that also!

But the reality here, rural, West of England, is that we have ethnic diversity but it is white, Eastern European. And the racism aimed at them is just as vile as anything I have seen or heard of aimed any BAME individual, usually for speaking their own language amongst themselves or for just not being English!

Am I more 'allowed' to be their 'ally' than I am any black or asian person? eading some of the repsonses here I suspect that might be the answer...

I've been led to see that it is human differences which are the primary issue. And there will always be a tendency in human nature whereby a sub section of the population will pick on those who stand out for whatever reason. We all notice obvious differences in superficial characteristics, though. It is inevitable.

When travelling in non western or in non white countries, as a white westerner, you stand out - and as a result you attract attention, not always welcome, and often very prejudiced. Certainly as a white woman. And especially from men.

I used to live in Scotland, and there was a lot of very thinly veiled anti english prejudice, that sometimes verged on out-right hostility as soon as you opened your mouth ( & my family are mainly Scottish in origin, and I don't speak with a posh accent).

White women are conspicuous in African, Middle Eastern and Asian countries, and sometimes some stereotypes come along with that - including that we might be up for sex more easily (not entirely unfounded, as white countries tend to be more sexually liberal and white travelers are often in holiday mode.)

However, generally having white skin in these countries results in us being seen as higher status, because whiteness is associated with power and money. A crime against a white person is more likely to be seriously punished in people's minds.

Having lived in two black African countries and travelled for work in about 15 Middle Eastern, Asian and African countries, my whiteness tends to lift me out of the status level of 'local' or BAME women visitors, to be treated with more, not less respect.

I will never forget coming as one of 300 guests to an African woman friend's wedding, and because I was the only white person, ushers attempted to put me on the top table - totally unjustified based on how closely I knew the bride. I tried to object, but other black African friends quietly told me I must accept. They explained that my friend's status and the prestige of the whole wedding had increased because of my presence, as a white person. And to not act appropriately, as a special dignitary, would in turn cause humiliation.

It is not as simple as saying any time anyone is a minority they may be discriminated against.... it is a question of what the stereotypes associated with different groups are. And in a huge majority of situations it is unfairly easier to be white in this world.