Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

Have you ever considered that some of what is labelled 'sexism' is actually just a recognition of natural biological differences, and differences that result out of that - such as child care responsibilities/strength differentials and so on?

@Justhadathought do you not think sexism exists?

Come on get with the programme - nobody can tell if you read a book, but the important thing is to post a picture on instagram (hygge accessories in winter, beach body photo in summer) and talk about 'learning', as though it was impossible for any white person to notice racism until 25th May 2020. Then you can be an 'ally'.

Oh yes
I'm DYING at work when my white, male boss starts waffling on about how he is busy educating himself on the impact of racism and how he can be a better "ally". Like, he somehow made it to 50 years of age but didn't realise racism was a thing until it was on Insta??
That and the cringy way he and the other managers have started singling out black and brown colleagues for mentoring, it just feels so patronising. The "soft bigotry of low expectations" was it? That describes what I see perfectly actually.
Yes, there is a definite resistance and defensiveness on the part of a lot of white people to accept that racism is real, and that just because some black people are bankers and some white people are homeless that doesn't mean that playing field is level.
It is true that, for a long time, I was put off the FWR board because every time I popped my head in it felt like everyone was very academic and a high earning professional and their experiences maybe didn't tally with mine (similar to what bluebooby said about class) but then I guess that's why it's important that we all come to the table with our own experiences, we talk to each other and we learn from each other. Women are quite good at that generally I find.
I am bit suspiscious about the recent wave of putting down women's opinions because they are white, or middle class, or middle aged, or whatever. It's like, white men, still running the world, but it's those white feminists you've got to watch. Hmm.
Late night ramble. Off to bed!

That and the cringy way he and the other managers have started singling out black and brown colleagues for mentoring, it just feels so patronising. The "soft bigotry of low expectations" was it? That describes what I see perfectly actually.

However, mentoring like this seems to be exactly the kind of thing the OP is saying white women aren't doing enough.

I agree about the cringe factor but at the same time, these poor people can't win for losing. They are being told that what they've been doing wasn't enough, they are contributing to racism, and they need to do all this to show they are on-side, to be good people.

I have a practical question.
Black colleague I've know for years and like a lot has just Private Messaged me a video on facebook and asked me to share. It's an uncredited (I can't see the source) video about Black Migrants in Libya being sold as slaves. Googling I can see it's possibly footage from 2017, but the main point is that as a white woman I think it'd look like 'Slavery- they do it themselves' if I reposted
so I haven't reposted and messaged her back saying the same. What would others do/ have done?

"I think if feminists can’t accept white privilege exists in the same way male privilege does" That's the basis of the original intersectionalism.

It makes sense. But it is difficult to unpick in real life given the UK is predominantly white and has vast areas where there are many ethnicities but hardly any BAME individuals.

Out of kilter with that, the most successful rural womens business network here is run by 2 BAME women. Not sure anyone notices, I only did now, because I am typing this!

I am guilty of not considering BAME womens experiences as separate or additional to my own. I have always just been an ardent feminist, trying to make changes for women. I was coming here to post exactly what @MacaroonMama posted. We are possibly of an age!

I have been told, here and in real life, that my 'colour blindness' is the worst kind of racism. That has been very vehemently expressed. I have thought about that. I understand it is the result of my "Kum ba yah" liberal / hippy schooling in the 70s.

Maybe this could be the start of a real discourse about the differences, the additional issues and how white women can better understand.

It's an uncredited (I can't see the source) video about Black Migrants in Libya being sold as slaves. Googling I can see it's possibly footage from 2017, but the main point is that as a white woman I think it'd look like 'Slavery- they do it themselves'
So who are "they" in this sentence?
This could be taken as black people being enslaved by a different majority ethnicity. I think this is an example of the confusion caused by simplistic binary thinking. The OP referred to "white" and "BME"; all racial and ethnic categories and somewhat ill defined, and BME or BAME are particularly confusing. Does BME include ethnic groups who are not black? Does it include white ethnic minorities? What about places where the majority population is black? Could the majority Arab/Berber ethnicities of Lybia be considered white? Some of them have pale skins and blue eyes.

I wish people would stop using the terms BAME and BME. Or at least explain what they mean.

@Falleninwiththewrongcrowd

It's an uncredited (I can't see the source) video about Black Migrants in Libya being sold as slaves. Googling I can see it's possibly footage from 2017, but the main point is that as a white woman I think it'd look like 'Slavery- they do it themselves' So who are "they" in this sentence? This could be taken as black people being enslaved by a different majority ethnicity. I think this is an example of the confusion caused by simplistic binary thinking. The OP referred to "white" and "BME"; all racial and ethnic categories and somewhat ill defined, and BME or BAME are particularly confusing. Does BME include ethnic groups who are not black? Does it include white ethnic minorities? What about places where the majority population is black? Could the majority Arab/Berber ethnicities of Lybia be considered white? Some of them have pale skins and blue eyes.

You've exactly summed up my quandry. I think reposting it would look like, look at them.

@Etinox

I have a practical question. Black colleague I've know for years and like a lot has just Private Messaged me a video on facebook and asked me to share. It's an uncredited (I can't see the source) video about Black Migrants in Libya being sold as slaves. Googling I can see it's possibly footage from 2017, but the main point is that as a white woman I think it'd look like 'Slavery- they do it themselves' if I reposted so I haven't reposted and messaged her back saying the same. What would others do/ have done?

Surely your colleague should be aware that if you posted something like that, you'd be on the receiving end of some sharp comments, given that if you are white you are viewed these days as inherently racist and a default supporter of systemic racism and never doing enough to combat it, while simultaneously also patronising black people, sidelining them from their own movement and any efforts to combat systemic racism is a way to make it all about you.

Maybe they could post it on their Facebook feed with their own commentary on the video and you can like the post or comment on it if you feel it's appropriate.

However, mentoring like this seems to be exactly the kind of thing the OP is saying white women aren't doing enough.
I guess it is. I just feel that , sometimes, this and all the D & I stuff in the workplace often serves to single out people because of a characteristic.
I suppose I just think, as I said earlier, that actually getting to know people, as individuals, and listening, yes, but not in a head tilt "I'm listening" way, just having normal conversations, is what creates real change.

@HepzibahGreen

However, mentoring like this seems to be exactly the kind of thing the OP is saying white women aren't doing enough. I guess it is. I just feel that , sometimes, this and all the D & I stuff in the workplace often serves to single out people because of a characteristic. I suppose I just think, as I said earlier, that actually getting to know people, as individuals, and listening, yes, but not in a head tilt "I'm listening" way, just having normal conversations, is what creates real change.

Normal contact reduces prejudice. It's the contact hypothesis. Pretty robust, iirc.

Nothing normal about being told your very presence is an ongoing trauma to black woman, a la Di Angelo.

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

I would like to address this question about a dream job.

My answer would be that context is everything.

Who is my “black colleague”?

Do they identify as a Nuwuabian and protest the innocence of the serial paedophile Dwight York aka Malachi Z. York aka countless other aliases?

Are they involved with the NOI and thus, by association the Co$?

Are they involved with the Black Hebrew Israelites?

Do they promote “sacred kink” and / or “sacred prostitution”?

Are they a life coach with multiple links to cults and MLM scams?

Are they a member of Spac Nation, the Universal Church of the Kingdom of God or any other controversial church with a long history of allegations of abusing and exploiting their followers (most of whom are from ethnic minorities)?

Do they or others define them as “ thought leaders?” Are they involved with any LGATs or dubious wellness or New Thought movements?

Do they define themselves as a humanitarian, a global citizen or a conscious capitalist?

Are they involved in far-right political movements?

Are they part of a movement that promotes one ethnic minority while oppressing / appropriating another ethnic minority?

Do they have connections to controversial psychotherapy cults and mental health charities, especially those working with issues of trauma?

I mention the above simply as various sinister forces are using the pain of people who have suffered racism to appropriate and infiltrate various activist groups and it benefits nobody except the very powerful people who wish to divide us all - and it seems to me that most of these powerful people are very often (not always but usually) white men.

From the OP
It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities.

It seems that there are several issues here. Obviously the category of BME women is a diverse category. Given that acronyms like BME, BAME, POC etc. are problematic, given that the category and word “black” is problematic and given that these words and acronyms mean different things to different people, there is thinking to do around what they mean, who is included and excluded before this conversation gets started.

However, if for the sake or argument we use the term BME, as it was used in the OP, can we agree that within the BME category there are many different perspectives and opposing views and opposing views?

I need to ask you for clarity here as I am unable to commit myself to pledging any kind of support or alliance with any group of category when I do not know what I am expressing support or alliance with.
Recent issues with the BLM movement and its appropriation and astroturfing by various sinister actors (which I think we can all agree on) is highly relevant.

Back to the issue of the hypothetical dream job. For the sake or argument, I would like to share a video of Kenneth Ray Stubbs, one of the authors of the disgusting Deer Tribe Manual, alongside his fellow promoter of sacred prostitution, Rev. Goddess Charmaine.

Interested readers may be interested In a visitor post to Rev. Goddess Charmaine’s fb page a white male with AGP expresses his appreciation for her videos and anatomy.
www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=425694451702256&set=p.425694451702256&type=3&theater

Should I drop out of applying for my ream job to allow Rev. Goddess Charmaine (or some other similar BME woman who is networked into sex cults that promote sex with children and sacred prostitution) to have a better chance of securing the job? Am I allowed to have concerns about Rev. Goddess Charmaine and other BME women with cultic associations? Am I allowed to ask for clarification about who this black person is that I am supposed to give way to?

I have a question for you. If I drop out of applying for my hypothetical dream job to allow Rev. Goddess Charmaine or some other minority woman who poses a danger to vulnerable women and girls, (and especially women and girls from ethnic minorities) and that woman then goes on to recruit vulnerable women and girls into a life of sex work and making porn videos for white men with AGP, what responsibility to I have for not conducting due diligence?

I am asking because in your post you say that “hand wringing”is not helpful. I agree. You say that in order to prove commitment to ant-racist causes and equality that white women should drop out if applying for a dream job to allow a black person to have a better chance. Do you not think that, especially given the astroturfing of BLM and other movements (e.g. NOI and the Co$), that the “blackness”of the competing job applicant is only one identifying factor?

Should we not be conducting due diligence?

I mean I could drop out of my hypothetical dream job to allow someone like Rev. Goddess Charmaine or Candace Owens to occupy a position in which they make use of the position to influence society in a way that oppresses vulnerable women from ethnic minorities.

The thing is that the sinister forces seeking to manipulate society use a “bait and switch” MO. This is what happened with BLM UK. The BLM movement was astroturfed by Russian trolls and bots in 2018 and 2019. This does not mean that BLM is unimportant or that the movement itself is without virtue or that it was not originally an important cause and still is.

I am quite intelligent (at least in some ways - I am neuro-atypical and am not so clever in others), and I have been got with the old bait and switch a few times. There is no shame in trying to support an anti-racist cause and then withdrawing when you discover that it isn’t what you thought it was.

In my personal experience the times when I have been most vulnerable to bait & switch have been times when my cognitive abilities have been compromised by exhaustion, sleep deprivation, trauma, loneliness etc. It is the same for everyone I think.

Thus at this time when pretty much everyone is stressed and vulnerable to being tricked we should all be vigilant not to endorse sinister movements and causes that astroturf real grass roots activism, would you agree?

Or do you think that white women should drop out of the dream job application process to allow a black woman to have a better chance regardless of this black woman’s associates, affiliations etc?

Also, for the avoidane of doubt - there are plenty of white women doing what Rev. Goddess Charmaine is doing. The man who founded the odious Deer Tribe cult was a white man falsely claiming to be native American and thus Rev. Goddess Charmaine, through her association with Kennth Ray Stubbs (a Deer Tribe recruiter and member) is potentially putting BME women and girls at risk of exploitation by a sexually abusive cult - a cult that real native Amercian people tell me is a white supremacist militia. for a short read this is informative
<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20200706095743/www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn5kny/a-to-z-of-sexual-history-quodoushka-another-bullshit-sex-cult" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20200706095743/www.vice.com/en_uk/article/zn5kny/a-to-z-of-sexual-history-quodoushka-another-bullshit-sex-cult

Yes there are now open air slave markets in Libya. This constant meddling by western powers in the region has directly led to this. I don’t care if it’s a different ethnicity doing it to another. Our governments have caused this, we are complicit.

Hooda, thanks for taking the time to write that long post and asking OP those interesting questions.

I look forward to OPs replies.

Yes there are now open air slave markets in Libya. This constant meddling by western powers in the region has directly led to this. I don’t care if it’s a different ethnicity doing it to another. Our governments have caused this, we are complicit

Is this suggestion that everything, including the wrong-doings of others, is ultimately the fault of the West, not a bit similar to suggesting that Israel has its hand in everything, including in the killing of George Floyd?

If the whole basis of your stance is an implicit anti Westernism then you're not going to get very far. It is also patronising in that it denies agency or responsibility of other states and their individual actors, for their own actions or policies.

There was an awful twitter thread started recently by a black transwomen and it had pictures of mainly black women saying they suffered "transphobia" and basically saying they looked trans or looked like men. From that I found a lot of black American women who are "divesting", a word I didn't know before, and "burning the cape". The energy really reminds me of when I first found out about radical feminism (or the only feminism as I think of it). medium.com/@FedUpWBlackMen/why-should-you-a-black-woman-burn-the-cape-f03db683fc12

If you see your dream job and a black colleague says they're applying do you drop out because you know your white privilege gives you an unfair advantage? If not, what use is the handwringing.

I actually did read about a man who is leaving (or has left) his job recently because he's white. I only skimmed the article though. Some kind of food company I think... I'll search my history for the link
<a class="break-all" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/dining/john-t-edge-southern-foodways-alliance.html#click=t.co/7wAS6Ros86" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.nytimes.com/2020/06/29/dining/john-t-edge-southern-foodways-alliance.html#click=t.co/7wAS6Ros86

Sorry, what is bait and switch? I have read about it several times, and I've read explanations but I just don't understand.

For the further consideration of readers

Rev Goddess Charmaine with her husband (I can think of another name for what he is given how she earns her money)
www.facebook.com/1494600237433492/photos/a.1497209337172582/2663075487252622/?type=3&theater

His name is Steve
www.facebook.com/1494600237433492/photos/a.1497209337172582/2660671660826338/?type=3&theater

Another of her fb profiles is here
www.facebook.com/1494600237433492/photos/a.1497209337172582/2660671660826338/?type=3&theater

A link re Rev Goddess Charmaine (Charmaine Colon aka Charmaine Browne aka Charmaine Armatas) and her husband Steve (Armatas) presiding over a “Earth Oneness ceremony”
archive.is/NGifR

I am incredibly pushed for time, however if any readers wish to check out some rabbit holes I do not have the time to check out the below video of a “Earth Oneness ceremony” that may provide an entrance to a tunnel leading to others. Be careful - the video is on a Deer Tribe channel operated by Kenneth Ray Stubbs

vimeo.com/242095992

Sorry, what is bait and switch? I have read about it several times, and I've read explanations but I just don't understand.

It is when one thing is swapped for another. Fortune tellers often request a big bag of money that needs to be burned to remove a curse.

The bag that gets burned is full of newspaper and the money gets appropriated by the fortune teller

Here's another bait and switch from the very educational film Nightmare Alley (highly recommended and available for all to see in full on youtube)

Re bait & switch

also see

and

re bait and switch and political movements -

I would very much recommend that readers check out this story and familiaraise themslves with the cult at the centre of it. I will be posting about them again soon

www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/crime-court/jeremiah-duggan-death-mum-erica-calls-for-german-police-to-reopen-probe-for-second-time-1-5910044

I no longer think its possible for anybody to be an ally to another oppressed group.

I've been reflecting a lot about race. People often talk about being a good ally and raising the voices voices of people of colour but I feel what they actually mean push my political agenda. Because if I responded with a Candace Owens video to someone arguing about defunding the police I'd be accused of cherry picking someone who confirms my own bias. We can all play that game. Why is it OK for a white liberal to 'raise black voices' who back up their argument but not OK for a white conservative?

It's a rhetorical device. To argue against that paticular view point becomes silencing, centering white voices and denying racism. At its worst its literally white supremacy.

I've reflected about my own approach to feminism because of this. Am I comfortable when Glinner attacks women who support trans rights on Twitter? Why do I allow him to speak over women because I have bestowed him the title of "ally." Radfems are very fond of saying men can only be allies and not feminists yet they give certain male allies platforms over liberal feminists. If they followed their logic fairly then Glinner wouldn't be able to mansplain feminism to any woman.

I've watched the vidoes online of white liberals bereating black cops and educating them about white supremacy. Its so cringe. And they get defended by many black woke folk on Twitter. Lets be honest - allyship is about politics not defending (insert oppressed group.)

Wherever men flagilate themselves about how awful they are (as a class) I just loose respect for them. Its not a get out of male free card. And how many so called feminists and allies end up doing awful misogynistic things? Thats how I feel when I see white feminists proclaiming about their anti-racist credentials.

I like to argue and debate but identity politics doesn't allow me to do this. If a person of a certain oppressed group challenges me I have to give way, even if what they are saying is factually incorrect, I just look like a dick arguing about something which I do not experience. I understand why. If someone is explaining an actual event in their life I have to respect that and I do like to learn and be empathetic.

But if someone is arguing about tactics or politics I should get to speak. Becuse the actions of identarians directly impact me. Its the reason why we are doomed to decades of Tory rule. Which materially effects my life. And its dumb to think that I have no black or brown mates and I might want them to be safe. That people haven't got the capacity to have human empathy for different groups.

Is it posssible to be a good ally in identarian terms? It just seems like such a contradictory and illogical concept. Because it assumes that members of an oppressed group all think the same. Many black people are socially conservative. Why are these voices not more mainstream with identarians? I am not supposed to take up space but then I am also asked to do the emotional labour of educating other white people. By sharing that book written by that white woman with the blackfishing name Robin DAngelo. Its a paticular narrative that I must push. And never question for fear of rejection from the "in group."

@HepzibahGreen

However, mentoring like this seems to be exactly the kind of thing the OP is saying white women aren't doing enough. I guess it is. I just feel that , sometimes, this and all the D & I stuff in the workplace often serves to single out people because of a characteristic. I suppose I just think, as I said earlier, that actually getting to know people, as individuals, and listening, yes, but not in a head tilt "I'm listening" way, just having normal conversations, is what creates real change.

Yeah, I think you are right, but that's not what is going on now.

I had a personal experience that was a surprise to me at the time - I had started to question a lot of the narrative that I was hearing around CRT and such, but it seemed to be really the only game in town, I didn't see other viewpoints in the media (mostly progressive left) or anywhere really. So I didn't really have anything to replace it with.

Then I widened my reading a little, and started to see some other ways of thinking, forms of analysis, some of them seemed much more interested in looking closely at empirical situations. And they seemed a lot more convincing to me, rooted in material reality, in history, than the identity politics stuff.

The surprise though was what a relief I found this to be, particularly in terms of actual interactions and relationships with non-white people. I hadn't had any idea that I found them to have tension, but I sure noticed it once it was gone. There was something about that identity politics lens that was a real barrier to being just open and taking people as people - even people I knew and liked, it seemed to inset all this baggage.

So I guess what I am saying is I worry that the pushing of identity politics is really making these kinds of conversations difficult or impossible. And that in a certain way, the old "colour-blind" approach was more likely to facilitate that kind of open discussion of experiences.

@Justhadathought

Yes there are now open air slave markets in Libya. This constant meddling by western powers in the region has directly led to this. I don’t care if it’s a different ethnicity doing it to another. Our governments have caused this, we are complicit

Is this suggestion that everything, including the wrong-doings of others, is ultimately the fault of the West, not a bit similar to suggesting that Israel has its hand in everything, including in the killing of George Floyd?

If the whole basis of your stance is an implicit anti Westernism then you're not going to get very far. It is also patronising in that it denies agency or responsibility of other states and their individual actors, for their own actions or policies.

I agree with you, it is true though that when you destabilise a region, you typically end up with a sort of strong gang leader in charge, or warring gang leader, situation.

But yeah, it kind of rankles, the implication that by meddling the west caused this, and nothing to do with the exploitative and immoral local gang leaders.