Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

Yes I saw! I reported my own post and hopefully that will be deleted soon too.

Thank you!

Anybody who thinks who is in prison has nothing to do with race, is really deluded. At every step, black men are more likely to go through this, and unless you have truly scummy idiotic views about some ethnicities being innately more criminal, then surely the explanation has to be socio-economic disadvantages (due to historic and contemporary racism) and first hand racism. Whether it's the deprived neighborhood you are born into, the inferior-funded school, the poorer job prospects, the crappier policing, the higher likelihood of being stopped and searched, the higher likelihood of conviction on scanty evidence, and the higher likelihood of a more severe sentence.

And to take the thread back closer to topic- of course black women don't feel supported here. I can't count the number of times I have read threads started by black women saying they feel they have encountered some form of racism and they have been told by multiple posters that it's not about race. A lot of people on this site just refuse to see the lives and experiences of BAME people. And that is the first, basic step to being able to support or be an ally.

I think there's a communication breakdown of some kind.

Over the last 30 years I've been very willing to hear about, say, Aboriginal deaths in custody, and then to do whatever - sign a petition, send an email, donate, go on a March, share an article, share accurate stats to doubters. I know racism exists, just as classism exists, and sexism exists, and homophobia exists.

But around the time of George Floyd's murder, the discourse was absolutely flooded with demands that I recognise myself as full of white racial especially, and educate yourself! Do the work! Not like that! Speak out! Shut up! and it's been incredibly odd to experience.

My politics, which include anti-racism, haven't changed in 30 years. I'm the same left voting Social Democrat I ever was.

So I just find the current discourse depressing. Given that fact, I'm just going to keep doing as described above, supporting anti-racism actions in material ways. Honestly I don't care at this point if I get called a white supremacist for some unspecified, non-material vague accusation of either not speaking up or not shutting up. It has about as much effect on me as being called a transphobe. I know neither are true.

Supremacy

@HeistSociety I hope you don't think my post was directed at you. It certainly wasn't. I didn't tag it because I am not interested in a punch up with an individual - several of the posts have now been deleted anyway.

And I don't think the wider criticism is aimed at you, either. I understand it can be alarming to seem to be bunched in together with a lot of crappiness you have been distancing yourself from - or evening fighting - all your life. I get that the discourse can be unappealing at times.

But good god, why shouldn't it be? When dealing with grinding, endless injustice, we are bloody lucky if the worst we get is angry discourse.

Heist Get back indoors, shut the fuck up!

That seems to be the message I have been getting, recently!

It is depressing. Like you I'll carry on as I am, wait for the world to turn a bit more. See if more common ground, common sense can be found!

several of the posts have now been deleted anyway. Were they the ones that were so sure that increased criminal activity was repsnsible for higher number in prison... and didn't stop to think about societal causes? As in do the crime, do the time?

I haven't found a way of countering that yet... not that the speaker will stop and listen to!

[quote BraveGoldie]@HeistSociety I hope you don't think my post was directed at you. It certainly wasn't. I didn't tag it because I am not interested in a punch up with an individual - several of the posts have now been deleted anyway.

And I don't think the wider criticism is aimed at you, either. I understand it can be alarming to seem to be bunched in together with a lot of crappiness you have been distancing yourself from - or evening fighting - all your life. I get that the discourse can be unappealing at times.

But good god, why shouldn't it be? When dealing with grinding, endless injustice, we are bloody lucky if the worst we get is angry discourse.

[/quote]
I am pretty worried about the essentializing of race, not because there's some white supremacy I'd like to be getting on with, but because it seems to run counter to what I was taught - which was NOT to be colorblind, because racism exists, but also to understand that we are all human people, capable of the same best and worst. To empathise on the basis of us being no differently humaned, kwim? And that's always been the base for my politics.
And this whole Whiteness thing ? Idk. It seems like it could really backfire.

I do want to listen, but I can't listen effectively, if the material request hasn't been communicated. Does that make sense? In good faith, I am not sure what is being asked.

Is it to drop feminism or class activism or disability rights for the time being in favour of Anti racism activism?

Is it to regurgitate Di Angelo?

Is it to use empathic imagination to hold black women's pain?

If a leftist is failing somehow to understand and meet the unspoken requests behind the Di Angelo type discourse, it doesn't matter much, in material ways. Because we do keeping showing up for just causes anyway, because it's right.

But not everyone is a long standing, committed leftist. I think there are scary times ahead in terms of backlash from the right, and honestly? I don't know-how the shut up discourse helps avoid that.

09:27StuffThem

@Falleninwithabadcrowd
BAME stands for Black and Minority Ethnicities*
BME the same just shortened without the 'and

does the Google not work on your device?

Google told me the 'A' was for Asian. Either way, I think the terms are unhelpful.

The Office for National Statistics agrees.
Use terms like “ethnic minority”, “ethnic minorities”, “ethnic minority population(s)” and so on, instead of acronyms such as BME and BAME, which are frequently used to refer to all except the White ethnic group. This is to avoid highlighting particular groups above others.
style.ons.gov.uk/house-style/race-and-ethnicity/
As do the signaturies of
*Under soulless acronyms such as BAME and POC, all ethnic minorities are robbed of individual agency, and assumed to be victims of injustice.

dontdivideus.com/

Oh, and I forgot to say -no, it's not lucky to get angry discourse. It's not a race to the bottom. Just as black women have dignity by virtue of being human, so do I.

Many women are abuse survivors. Like me, it's retraumatising to hear the same language directed at you as your abuser is

Unfortunately, my abuse was racialized, with 'shut up white fucking b*tch' being at the mild end of the scale. My abuser also told me to stop weaponising my fucking tears.

So no, it's not lucky to find yourself hearing those things again, directed against you unspecified crimes, though I'll agree it's a lot worse to end up dead under the knee of a murdering cop.

I don't believe they can as a norm. I see racism explained away too often on forum so, no. The intersectionality of racism and sexism is dismissed out of hand and if you look back over posts on this board you'll see it for yourself.

@DeeCeeCherry

I don't believe they can as a norm. I see racism explained away too often on forum so, no. The intersectionality of racism and sexism is dismissed out of hand and if you look back over posts on this board you'll see it for yourself.

Can you be specific?

Because these are the kind of statements I literally don't understand. Maybe it's stupidity, maybe it's white privilege, maybe it's lack of clear communication?

Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., 16 April 1963

Letter from Birmingham Jail (ext)

"First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says

"I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom;

Who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

Shallow understanding from people of goodwill is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright.

So, is the oblique answer that white women are not allies unless they engage in direct activism? Whose direct action? Violent or non-violent? Is the objection that white women never throw themselves body and soul into the black cause?

I guess I can understand that. It is likely very frustrating. Maybe it feels as if you're on fire, and white women want to help put the fire out, but they only have a teaspoon of water to spare?

Or more correctly, a teaspoon they are willing to share.

It's true. I'm not prepared to go to jail, for example, for protesting black deaths in custody. I won't give money to causes that centre black males. It's true. I won't quit my job to picket the police station where the cop who kicked the Aboriginal teen on camera works. I won't tithe my 10%.

In that way, yes, all of us who refuse to give more than our willing teaspoon are saying 'not now, no more.'

I don't think me performatively proclaiming toxic Whiteness helps either, though, Tbh.

And I wonder how many of us would truly give more than our willing teaspoon to the other?

Thanks for the chance to reflect.

The intersectionality of racism and sexism is dismissed out of hand and if you look back over posts on this board you'll see it for yourself. Really?

If you mean posters like myself you won't see anything of the sort. You'll see another perspective, an explanation of our early education, which back in the 70s had an entirely different version of being non racist.

We acknowledge that that is out of date and have asked, repeatedly, if/how we can update ourselves. But most repsonses seem to be like yours - finger pointing, not helping!

And then what Heist just posted... I do what I do. It is more than many, less than many others. That it isn't in line with what A N Other wants is almost immaterial!

Heist, to me it's not like someone being on fire and being given a teaspoon of water...... yeah, it would be nice if people gave more, but if you get enough teaspoons maybe that helps a bit... and at least people are doing something. (And appreciate your self reflection about what you are and are not willing to give. We all have limits... maybe some of us give tablespoons, others a bucket, a few a hose)....

What happens more, which is really what people object to - is being on fire, and having folks say 'you're not on fire. Fire doesn't exist. And stop screaming - it's rude and unhelpful - and it doesn't make me feel good." All while you continue to burn...

@BraveGoldie

Heist, to me it's not like someone being on fire and being given a teaspoon of water...... yeah, it would be nice if people gave more, but if you get enough teaspoons maybe that helps a bit... and at least people are doing something. (And appreciate your self reflection about what you are and are not willing to give. We all have limits... maybe some of us give tablespoons, others a bucket, a few a hose)....

What happens more, which is really what people object to - is being on fire, and having folks say 'you're not on fire. Fire doesn't exist. And stop screaming - it's rude and unhelpful - and it doesn't make me feel good." All while you continue to burn...

No, you're definitely on fire. Is that it, really? That other women just say yeah, racism exists, I get why you're putting your time into that and not into - idk - campaigns about the hypersexualisation of women in media.

Because to me that seems normal, and also a world away from the current rhetoric.

Ugh, I always post too soon. Thanks for replying using my own metaphor - that really helps me understand.

Ugh, again. We need an edit button.

That racism exists, that it really fucking hurts, and we get why this aspect of your being is so urgent and raw and essential to you right now.

Is that more what the non-hurtful reply needs to be from white feminists to black feminists?

What happens more, which is really what people object to - is being on fire, and having folks say 'you're not on fire. Fire doesn't exist. And stop screaming - it's rude and unhelpful - and it doesn't make me feel good." All while you continue to burn...

Sorry, still piggybacking the conversation you two are having!

I hadn't seen that! It seems ludicrous... actually, yes, I have seen it. It is usually challenged as it is a ludicrous position to hold, but I am sure it must be enraging to see/hear it over and over again, whether it is challenged or not!!

But sometimes people like BIL just don't stop and, to be honest, the best could do was leave, and we walked away, years ago!

I'd happily shoot him... put him out of our misery. But that seems a bit beyond my capabilities, happy as it would make me! I have no solution for sheer lunacy!

I can't count the number of times I have read threads started by black women saying they feel they have encountered some form of racism and they have been told by multiple posters that it's not about race.
This is true. I don't think it's AS true on the feminism board actually, but across MN (and probably other forums idk) it's true.
There's a shocking amount of defensiveness when someone posts about racism, as if those protesting it's NOT racism can't tell the difference between someone complaining about something some white people do, and someone complaining about them personally.
It's very like when men say " but I don't do that" "women can be violent too" or "Myra Hyndley". Just a refusal to accept that sometimes it IS racism.

@HepzibahGreen

I can't count the number of times I have read threads started by black women saying they feel they have encountered some form of racism and they have been told by multiple posters that it's not about race. This is true. I don't think it's AS true on the feminism board actually, but across MN (and probably other forums idk) it's true. There's a shocking amount of defensiveness when someone posts about racism, as if those protesting it's NOT racism can't tell the difference between someone complaining about something some white people do, and someone complaining about them personally. It's very like when men say " but I don't do that" "women can be violent too" or "Myra Hyndley". Just a refusal to accept that sometimes it IS racism.

So true!