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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can white women be allies to BME women?

588 replies

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 03:18

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

OP posts:
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7
Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 06/07/2020 15:22

@DJLippy

I no longer think its possible for anybody to be an ally to another oppressed group.

I've been reflecting a lot about race. People often talk about being a good ally and raising the voices voices of people of colour but I feel what they actually mean push my political agenda. Because if I responded with a Candace Owens video to someone arguing about defunding the police I'd be accused of cherry picking someone who confirms my own bias. We can all play that game. Why is it OK for a white liberal to 'raise black voices' who back up their argument but not OK for a white conservative?

It's a rhetorical device. To argue against that paticular view point becomes silencing, centering white voices and denying racism. At its worst its literally white supremacy.

I've reflected about my own approach to feminism because of this. Am I comfortable when Glinner attacks women who support trans rights on Twitter? Why do I allow him to speak over women because I have bestowed him the title of "ally." Radfems are very fond of saying men can only be allies and not feminists yet they give certain male allies platforms over liberal feminists. If they followed their logic fairly then Glinner wouldn't be able to mansplain feminism to any woman.

I've watched the vidoes online of white liberals bereating black cops and educating them about white supremacy. Its so cringe. And they get defended by many black woke folk on Twitter. Lets be honest - allyship is about politics not defending (insert oppressed group.)

Wherever men flagilate themselves about how awful they are (as a class) I just loose respect for them. Its not a get out of male free card. And how many so called feminists and allies end up doing awful misogynistic things? Thats how I feel when I see white feminists proclaiming about their anti-racist credentials.

I like to argue and debate but identity politics doesn't allow me to do this. If a person of a certain oppressed group challenges me I have to give way, even if what they are saying is factually incorrect, I just look like a dick arguing about something which I do not experience. I understand why. If someone is explaining an actual event in their life I have to respect that and I do like to learn and be empathetic.

But if someone is arguing about tactics or politics I should get to speak. Becuse the actions of identarians directly impact me. Its the reason why we are doomed to decades of Tory rule. Which materially effects my life. And its dumb to think that I have no black or brown mates and I might want them to be safe. That people haven't got the capacity to have human empathy for different groups.

Is it posssible to be a good ally in identarian terms? It just seems like such a contradictory and illogical concept. Because it assumes that members of an oppressed group all think the same. Many black people are socially conservative. Why are these voices not more mainstream with identarians? I am not supposed to take up space but then I am also asked to do the emotional labour of educating other white people. By sharing that book written by that white woman with the blackfishing name Robin DAngelo. Its a paticular narrative that I must push. And never question for fear of rejection from the "in group."

I've seen a lot of this online. I've been watching lots of videos, from both sides of the argument but what I've noticed is that when a black person, with conservative views, speaks out they are very quickly subject to some vile insults and name calling - by white people!!! I cannot get my head round this at all.and it feels supremely uncomfortable.

Much earlier in this debate a poster on another thread told me that I needed to educate myself about BLM and that it was up to me, as a white person, to.identify ways in which I should be making the world better for black people. Except, is that right for me to decide what will make things better for a group that I'm.not part of? I don't know what the right thing is at all. I'm a woman. I also have a disability so they are that is what I have experience of. I really would not want a man, nor an able bodied person, to decide that they knew what was best for me and to set about campaigning for that, on my behalf. To me, that just feels all kinds of wrong so how can it be right for white people to do the same to black people? But then maybe I'm.wrong in thinking that.

Signalbox · 06/07/2020 15:50

This BBC clip says it all...
If white women want to be allies to black women:

Don’t be so loud.
Get out of the way.
Leave.

I’m not entirely sure why these white women don’t take their own advice.

mobile.twitter.com/BBCSounds/status/1279837698769825792

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 15:57

I'd have to translate that as

Shut up
Go away
Go now

Which would then leave me, and all white women, doing nothing.

The same nothing we are being berated for.

Could I have a note please?

Curious is doing nothing for black women, she is doing so under explicit instruction.

Something has gone wrong. Women set against women? Who does that help? Who is engineering the othering? Why?

TheRealMcKenna · 06/07/2020 16:12

Something has gone wrong. Women set against women? Who does that help? Who is engineering the othering? Why?

Here is a very good starting point:

newdiscourses.com/

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 16:21

Sorry, I'm on the app. It doesn't like many links.

Signalbox · 06/07/2020 16:35

Here is a very good starting point:

Just listening to James Lindsay.

I didn't know "brown fragility" is a thing. Identity politics must eat itself eventually.

TheRealMcKenna · 06/07/2020 16:46

CuriousaboutSamphire

To put it simply, the foundations and structures which underpin western society are based on and uphold white supremacy. These include science, mathematics and other enlightenment values. We can only destroy white supremacy by rebuilding society based on new ways of ‘knowing’. Hence, the idea of no biological sex. Biology is a white supremacist way of knowing.

I know this sounds ridiculous. However, here is a reply to a tweet which James Lindsay posted stating that the idea of 2+2=4 is a white supremacist idea.

“Nope the idea of 2 + 2 equaling 4 is cultural and because of western imperialism/colonization, we think of it as the only way of knowing.”

People actually believe this shit. People teach it at university. Parents take out mortgages so their children can learn this crap. Society if fucked if we don’t counter this shit.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 16:51

Oh! Supremacist blather!

That wasn't quite what I meant.

And history doesn't really support maths being a white construct either!!!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 16:52

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound quite that dismissive. I'm still trying to get my head around 'knowing'...

TheRealMcKenna · 06/07/2020 16:53

Don’t know if you can open images....

Can white women be allies to BME women?
CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 17:07

Oh!!!!!!!

That wiped out a lot of history, didn't it?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 17:20

Thinking more on that it gets scarier, but isn't really along the lines of the OP.

I don't want to derail, but thanks for the irritation, eye opener and thought of the day Smile

Bluebooby · 06/07/2020 17:52

I saw the 2+2 = 4 tweet too. Is all this stuff postmodernism? CRT and QT I mean, not sure if there are other types? I've seen similar language sneaking into conversations around disability and autism but as far as I know, they don't have a specific theory.

Whoever invented it is probably the one person I'd cancel if I could.

HeistSociety · 06/07/2020 17:53

Science and math are not white supremacist constructs. That's just nonsense.

All I see in claims like this are the noble savage trope, which is racist AF.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 06/07/2020 17:57

It is, isn't it?

Racist AF as well bad ignorant, I mean.

TheRealMcKenna · 06/07/2020 18:06

Yes, I know of someone else who thinks that maths and science belong to white people.

His name is Nicholas Fuentes.

deepwatersolo · 06/07/2020 18:08

Googling I can see it's possibly footage from 2017, but the main point is that as a white woman I think it'd look like 'Slavery- they do it themselves'

Etinox, I'm frankly, baffled how you could come to that conclusion. The fact of the matter is that there wouldn't be open Slave markets, if the West had not toppled Ghadaffi because they could not stomach that Libya was set to get its own currency, the Gold Dinar, emancipating itself (and possibly the African continent in the process) from Western currencies. The leaked emails that prove this was the motive exist, it is no conspiracy theory it is a fact.
So the whole intervention in Libya was in fact a white supremacist power play, and the fact that now we have achieved our goal, nobody gives a shit about the slave markets - possibly because it is only black and brown people who are sold off?

In order not to be misunderstood I might preface the post with something like: 'Slave markets in Libya exist, because the West couldn't stomach the independence of brown people but is fine with their enslavement'...

HeistSociety · 06/07/2020 18:14

It's ahistorical and ignorant.

Maths and science belonged, for a long time, to the Islamic world.

Indigenous people in my country had and used mathematical concepts, and scientific ways of managing fire risk in the environment. They engineered.

Some of the world's most accomplished mathematicians were/are Indian, or Asian.

Nonsense is nonsense, no matter who says it.

What may be accurate to say is that scientific and mathematical institutions reflect the levels of racism (or other isms) present in society at large.

Honestly, imagine the laughter if I claimed that the concept of science was sexist, or mathematics was against the working class. I'd be ridiculed as a crank.

DreadPirateLuna · 06/07/2020 18:21

Nope the idea of 2 + 2 equaling 4 is cultural and because of western imperialism/colonization, we think of it as the only way of knowing.

I assumed that was satire but the line between satire and reality is getting very thin these days.

Apart from all the other nonsensical things about this statement, mathematics owes a lot to India and the Islamic world. That's why we call them Arabic numbers, and why the words for algebra and algorithm derive from Arabic.

DreadPirateLuna · 06/07/2020 18:22

Double posted with HeistSociety!

HeistSociety · 06/07/2020 18:25

@DreadPirateLuna

Double posted with HeistSociety!
I'm starting to think we have major issues with an educational system that can turn out graduates without a clue re the history of maths and science.
deepwatersolo · 06/07/2020 18:28

To put it simply, the foundations and structures which underpin western society are based on and uphold white supremacy. These include science, mathematics and other enlightenment values.

Yeah, TheRealMcKenna, you have summed up those arguments quite well. I wonder if people who perpetuate this really and honestly believe that supremacy was a white invention.
White societies have often had the edge, because science&technology at least in recent history regularly gave them an advantage. And, obviously, the still existing and still perpetuated imbalances and exploitations need to be addressed.
But, at least, 'white' enlightenment and what followed gave us the tools to see those injustices and movements to address them.

So, if we do away with 'white' enlightenment and science, what would be the benefit? That we can't even name why we think enslaving some other tribe or burning some 'witch' is not ok?

terryleather · 06/07/2020 18:29

I've just been watching Helen Pluckrose, colleague of James Lindsay, talking about the history of PoMo/Queer/Critical Justice ideas - although HP is quite a nervous speaker (and I don't agree with her stance on everything) I thought this was a clear and fairly easy to understand explanation of what can be a pretty opaque subject.

TheRealMcKenna · 06/07/2020 18:32

DreadPirateLuna sadly it wasn’t satire. It came from the same person whose other tweets I put on the screenshot upthread.

deepwatersolo · 06/07/2020 18:37

Honestly, imagine the laughter if I claimed that the concept of science was sexist, or mathematics was against the working class. I'd be ridiculed as a crank.

To be fair, there are (neoliberal) economic theories that are half baked, do demonstrably not work as advertised, are (wrongly) touted as highly scientific and very strong, only because they work to make the elites richer... Steve Keen's 'Debunking Economics' sums it up quite well. So, I don't dispute that the nimbus of science can be used to perpetuate bullshit. And academia is not always free enough to self correct (see also postmodernist gender studies).

So, I understand the criticism that science is often misused to perpetuate power structures. But that is a problem of corrupted science (by donor pressure...), not a problem of science being intrinsically bad.

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