Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can white women be allies to BME women?

588 replies

missyoumuch · 02/07/2020 03:18

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
BraveGoldie · 07/07/2020 15:39

@HeistSociety

Ugh, again. We need an edit button.

That racism exists, that it really fucking hurts, and we get why this aspect of your being is so urgent and raw and essential to you right now.

Is that more what the non-hurtful reply needs to be from white feminists to black feminists?

Yes - I think that kind of reply is a huge step forward.

Because while it seems obvious, it really isn't to many people.

I think the first thing we can do as allies is to really listen and say 'yes there is a problem.' And 'No I am not ok with it' without sidetracking into numerous other side alleys and saying 'ahh but what about....' That is what your kind of reply (quoted) achieves.

Maybe the second thing is to call out and be heard if you hear people denying there is a problem or being racist

Maybe the third thing is to actively do what we can. That may be very little. It may be as simple as signing a petition, rather than thinking 'not my fight'. It may be giving some money. It may be as well as looking at the representation of women, asking your company why none of its new hires or guest speakers etc are black, and encouraging them to do better next time. Perhaps it is consciously choosing a black woman to mentor, because that way you are contributing to offset two ways in which someone may be disadvantaged, rather than just one... it may be bigger things if you have the energy and capacity.

I think if we get the first two we are well on our way to being decent allies. They sound simple, but they are not. They take a lot of self reflection and personal courage in a lot of individual moments. I don't always get them right. I am trying to do better. For example, in the past I would see racist comments (or comments denying racism) on Mumsnet and would just think 'what an idiot' and move on. But I have come to realize that people then don't get that it's not ok or welcome - they definitely don't know that I don't think it's ok. I am leaving it to others - including black women who are tired of always having to stand out on their own and fight the fight and isolate themselves. I have realized that it makes a difference whether I am heard or not. Not because I am special in anyway, but because the more people who are heard, the more these things change..... I hope.

I don't think there is one right answer, and I definitely have no access to it or special right to explain it..... but this is the understanding I have reached about how to be an ally and it is what I am holding myself accountable to.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/07/2020 15:48

Should this allyship only be applied to black women? Why not also to Asian women or women from all other ethnic minorities? Are they not going to suffer even more if people only focus on black women? Is that not racist towards women of other ethnic minorities?

What about disabled women? Should they not be also deserving of hand ups too?

There are so many people at the bottom, how do you choose who to help?

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 16:02

@deepwatersolo

The numbers are clear. The probability of Black men being searched and ending up in prison for drug possession is way higher than for whites, even though the ratios of drug possession are the same. It is a direct result of racially discriminate policing (stop and frisk anyone?) that the prions are still full of Black men locked away for the nonviolent offence of marijuana possession, while white men with similar proclivities have made themselves multi million businesses of it after legalization. Yeah, I know that cop lethally shooting a Black ten or twelve year old kid touting a toy gun no questions asked is also just one video, and.... It is hard to believe you are genuinely so blind to this ever repeating reality. Do you think Slavery was real? John Crow? Water fountains for whites only? Do you think those attitudes magically disappeared with the laws? And what is MLK up to these days? Enjoying his old age in the Hamptons?
This is more complicated than it seems though - where you are caught makes a difference to how you are treated.

The same as with differences that don't seem to make a lot of sense about sentences for different drugs. Crack cocaine gets a longer sentence, but that came out of efforts to reduce crime in black neighbourhoods, where crack was more common. This was in response to demands from the people in those neighbourhoods that police weren't doing enough.

Similarly with police killings - what connects them most is poverty, blacks are only somewhat over-represented and police killings of blacks have been going down while those of whites have been going up.

BraveGoldie · 07/07/2020 16:20

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Should this allyship only be applied to black women? Why not also to Asian women or women from all other ethnic minorities? Are they not going to suffer even more if people only focus on black women? Is that not racist towards women of other ethnic minorities?

What about disabled women? Should they not be also deserving of hand ups too?

There are so many people at the bottom, how do you choose who to help?

This is a typical example of the 'ah but...' that is used to undermine and obfuscate. Big fail on step one which I described to be an ally.

No of course I am not saying you are not allowed to care about or do anything to help other struggling people. Don't be ridiculous. Nobody is saying that! It's like explaining to a man you want him to stand up and say rape is not ok, and he responds 'you're saying I can't condemn other forms of violence against women?Isn't that unfair to women who get beaten?' Really!

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 16:20

As far as systemic or institutional racism in America - I guess it really depends on what that is supposed to be.

To me, racism is fundamentally race essentialism. So institutional racism would be instances where the idea of race is embedded into how institutions of systems work.

I think there's been a lot of effort, even in the US, to get negative instances of race essentialism out of institutions. But you do still see the effects of differences in demographic outcomes racially, which isn't a simple problem to solve no matter how to try to do it.

My problem with a lot of identity politics initiatives is they seem to take the same race essentialism and embed it back into institutions, albeit supposedly in a benign and helpful way.

That rather peculiar article upthread by Ali's son did not make me think he was especially politically insightful, but I think it was interesting that he felt the need to emphasis the dreaded ALM. I think people have tended to see it as a statement meant to stand against BLM, but at least for people like him I don't think that's true, I think the idea is that you cannot divide people off into groups and proclaim the worth of each group, rather our worth is rooted in recognition of our common humanity.

deepwatersolo · 07/07/2020 17:40

Goosefoot I very much doubt that the Black Community asked for generations of Black young men to be locked away for nonviolent offences. The very idea that some poor black community demanded something - anything - and politics followed suit is laughable. On that note: Does Flynt have clean water yet?

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 18:28

@deepwatersolo

Goosefoot I very much doubt that the Black Community asked for generations of Black young men to be locked away for nonviolent offences. The very idea that some poor black community demanded something - anything - and politics followed suit is laughable. On that note: Does Flynt have clean water yet?
You might doubt it but I think you are phrasing it in a way that doesn't lend itself to understanding why certain things happened. There has been at least book by an academic on the topic of black communities asking for more policing and the institutional response to that. It doesn't seem to be historically controversial either, I've seen it referenced often enough, though not by the CRT crowd.

It did have outcomes that people now see as negative. Which is important and significant, and something to think about in light of calls to defund the police.

But just looking at incarceration rates and saying, this is bad and the cause is racism - it's not really that helpful. It makes a difference whether the mechanism for that is directly racist attitudes in the police, or correlations between race and poverty, or something else. It makes a difference if violent offences are committed at a higher rate by black men, looking to the police as a cause of that is not going to be in any way effective.

In my community there was an inquiry in the last few years into the question of police checks being more likely to be of members of the black community. (Basically randomly pulling people over.) Which was true, but the real correlation was neighbourhood, you wee more likely to be checked in a high crime area. I heard an interview with one community member, a black man and a social worker, who said he thought police checks were useful, but in order to avoid being racist they should do them at the same rate in other neighbourhoods with different demographic profiles.

Well, maybe, but then they are spending their funding and personnel on communities without much crime and presumably removing them from communities that are high crime, and where the residents regularly complain of lack of resources to deal with it.

All of this, consciously or unconsciously, seems to be very carefully avoiding the real questions which are why poverty has been persistent in the black community, which has been consistently difficult to solve, or in some cases even get a clear sense of the reasons for its persistence. It doesn't have easy solutions or slogans to attach to it, and it's an often frustrating and long-term effort.

I've felt increasingly like that work is being undermined, and talking about the difficult problems is less and less acceptable. So it is kind of a piss-off when people start saying "why won't you talk about this stuff?"

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/07/2020 19:18

BraveGoldie

How is it an " ah, but"? You are telling women to mentor black women in business, that is surely a case of ignoring other women isn't it? Unless that woman has the capacity to mentor several women then you are telling white women to favour black women over everyone else?

Your comparison with rape Vs other assaults is a false analogy because it's easy to speak out against several things at the same time. If you have finite resources then you are telling women to concentrate resources on only one group. Can you explain how that isn't racist to women of other ethnicities?

deepwatersolo · 07/07/2020 19:23

Goosefoot with your world view, 1. how do you explain that the documented crimes committed by Wall Street big shots, like JP Morgan and others consistently only ever result in fines (which pale in comparison to the fraudulently achieved gains) but never in locked up bankers? The laws to lock them up are in the books. And since Occupy Wallstreet, pretty much everyone has heard this demand. So why do they always walk, without even an indictment? 2. Do you honestly believe the Black community asked for the locking up of black men for Years and decades for the (possibly repeated) offence Of marijuana possession?

No offence, but It is no wonder you are clueless about how to ‚solve the problem‘. You can‘t even identify the actual problem when it stares right into your face.

BraveGoldie · 07/07/2020 19:45

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras first of all, I haven't told women to do anything. I have expressed that the actual doing anything is optional, and fully dependent on what people are able to do, and I have listed a range of possibilities as examples of things people might be able to do - at no point saying anybody has to do anything. I also at no point suggested these things needed to ONLY be for black women.

Ask yourself why you are motivated to make up crap and misquote people to try to make what they are saying sound unreasonable?? That is why it is an 'ah but' - you don't want to do what seems blindingly simple and obvious - acknowledge that black women often have it damned hard and no it's not ok that they suffer both sexism and racism, that it's a legitimate concern that you care about, and it's good if and when any of us can help in some way'. Instead you have to twist yourself in knots (and twist my words while doing it) to find an 'ah but'....

Good luck but it doesn't wash here.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 07/07/2020 19:57

[quote BraveGoldie]@Hearhoovesthinkzebras first of all, I haven't told women to do anything. I have expressed that the actual doing anything is optional, and fully dependent on what people are able to do, and I have listed a range of possibilities as examples of things people might be able to do - at no point saying anybody has to do anything. I also at no point suggested these things needed to ONLY be for black women.

Ask yourself why you are motivated to make up crap and misquote people to try to make what they are saying sound unreasonable?? That is why it is an 'ah but' - you don't want to do what seems blindingly simple and obvious - acknowledge that black women often have it damned hard and no it's not ok that they suffer both sexism and racism, that it's a legitimate concern that you care about, and it's good if and when any of us can help in some way'. Instead you have to twist yourself in knots (and twist my words while doing it) to find an 'ah but'....

Good luck but it doesn't wash here. [/quote]
So no one is being told to do anything, and no one is telling women to look to see how they can specifically help black women by, for example, mentoring them? But that has been suggested on this thread so how I'm twisting things I don't know. The thread is about white women and whether they can be allies to BAME women, yet the AME women have been left out of the discussion as it's focussed on black women and BLM.

I don't doubt that black women suffer from both racism and sexism. I'm quite sure AME women also suffer from racism and sexism too and I'm sure that disabled women suffer from ableism and sexism. I'm just wondering why it's becoming acceptable to discriminate against other sections of society.

Dissimilitude · 07/07/2020 20:01

It’s almost as though we have concocted an environment where some element of social status is conferred by identifying with an oppressed group, thus explaining both the streadfast refusal to acknowledge being part of an “oppressor” group, a desire to point out how even more oppressed sunsets of groups might be, and the inevitable internecine squabbles that this jockeying for position cause.

It’s easier if one takes the view everything that derives from critical theory is utter bunk, the world is a lot more sensible that way.

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 20:37

@deepwatersolo

Goosefoot with your world view, 1. how do you explain that the documented crimes committed by Wall Street big shots, like JP Morgan and others consistently only ever result in fines (which pale in comparison to the fraudulently achieved gains) but never in locked up bankers? The laws to lock them up are in the books. And since Occupy Wallstreet, pretty much everyone has heard this demand. So why do they always walk, without even an indictment? 2. Do you honestly believe the Black community asked for the locking up of black men for Years and decades for the (possibly repeated) offence Of marijuana possession?

No offence, but It is no wonder you are clueless about how to ‚solve the problem‘. You can‘t even identify the actual problem when it stares right into your face.

Rich people rarely get locked up for rich people's crimes. I'm not sure what your point is there?

And yes, in the 60s and 70s and even 80s black communities did demand that the authorities in their cities get tough on crime in their neighbourhoods. They say police who stayed away, would not answer calls, and said, this is racist, we need police services here, we need liveable communities. Also at this time in the Us there as a really significant movement of black leaders into positions of power in many cities - city councils, mayors, into the police and police chiefs. A lot of people who were civil rights activists thought this was going to result in major changes in the ways cities were run and the disadvantages that dogged many black communities and neighbourhoods would begin to disappear.

If you simply disbelieve history that doesn't suit your narrative, yeah, I'm not so interested in talking to you about how to achieve a more just and equal society, what would be the point. You know what you want to know, and apparently you even know how to fix it all.

Goosefoot · 07/07/2020 20:39

@Dissimilitude

It’s almost as though we have concocted an environment where some element of social status is conferred by identifying with an oppressed group, thus explaining both the streadfast refusal to acknowledge being part of an “oppressor” group, a desire to point out how even more oppressed sunsets of groups might be, and the inevitable internecine squabbles that this jockeying for position cause.

It’s easier if one takes the view everything that derives from critical theory is utter bunk, the world is a lot more sensible that way.

Yup. Critical Theory is just toxic shit.
TheRealMcKenna · 07/07/2020 20:59

It’s easier if one takes the view everything that derives from critical theory is utter bunk, the world is a lot more sensible that way.

This.

Can someone please tell Rep. Omar. I’ve just seen her latest video calling for the dismantling of all systems of oppression. I guess she wants to turn the entire USA into CHAZ. Good luck with that one.

BraveGoldie · 07/07/2020 21:06

I am not discriminating by not temporarily mentioning others groups in every sentence. That idea is ridiculous. I have no issue with applying what I have said to other groups, but so happens I wasn't talking about them right then. The idea that you can't talk about a group without instantly talking about every other group is ridiculous. Total straw man.

I have not told anybody that they have to do anything and I have definitely not suggested any other group is not deserving of support/ help/ empathy or anything else.

TheRealMcKenna · 07/07/2020 22:04

This pretty much sums up CRT.

Can white women be allies to BME women?
HeistSociety · 07/07/2020 23:02

@Hearhoovesthinkzebras

Should this allyship only be applied to black women? Why not also to Asian women or women from all other ethnic minorities? Are they not going to suffer even more if people only focus on black women? Is that not racist towards women of other ethnic minorities?

What about disabled women? Should they not be also deserving of hand ups too?

There are so many people at the bottom, how do you choose who to help?

For myself, of course. Disability is a major issue in how women can live free lives, and that actually includes in regard to police interaction, for some forms of disability.
HeistSociety · 07/07/2020 23:14

BraveGoldie

Thanks. You helped me figure out the area in which I lack, which is accurately responding to the emotional valance of an experience of racism, and how to respond, in the moment, from the heart and not the head.

I still reject what I see as a dangerous cure. No white affinity groups for me, I'm afraid. I'll keep on in my old fashioned way, nodding along to Adolph Reed.

But hopefully in future I can do better in recognising and responding to the pain of racism, and not just offer my teaspoon out of an abstract sense of 'well, it's the right thing to do'.

HeistSociety · 07/07/2020 23:27

It's not great. But my question was about responding to emotion.

I think it's ok to want to respond emotionally in a way that expresses an empathetic understanding of significant pain in another person AND it's ok to strongly critique CRT.

But maybe the critique of CRT doesn't meet the need to be seen and acknowledged as someone impacted by racism first.

Idk.

HeistSociety · 07/07/2020 23:27

Oh, that last post was meant to be quoting goosefoot, sorry.

BraveGoldie · 08/07/2020 00:23

@HeistSociety glad it was useful. Yes I think responding from the heart is very important (in the end, it isn't a philosophical/theoretical discussion for people experiencing it...)

I think we all need to find our own way.

I personally don't get wrapped up in a lot of the philosophizing and theorizing.

Not sure what you mean by white affinity group - for me being an ally isn't to do with being in any group. It's just a personal choice about what you think and do each day.

Ginnyhip46 · 08/07/2020 00:40

Again I’ve not read the whole thread but I just wanted to add my perspective and experience as an Indian woman, my only allies have been white women and men. But I have experienced racism from all colours.

I grew up in London at an all white school. A White boy called Christopher became my best friend and pretty much spent his entire childhood defending me against racist bullies, even getting his teeth smashed out when he was 12 after some boys rounded on me at an ice rink Calling me “Dirty Paki” they kicked him to the ground Instead if me and he ended up having to go to hospital to get his teeth all turned into crowns on posts.

I received racism from Indians who thought I should stay in my box and know my place, and called me names like “black bitch chasing after a bag of sugar” for having white friends and a white boyfriend.

I received racism from white men and women too many times to count.

But often if I was on the bus and someone was swearing at me, a white man or woman would vocally stand up to them, ask if I was ok, help get the person removed from the bus, and this happened more than once. I feel like bus racism is the one I get the most, even when I used to be travelling with my little girl. I would say this happened around 20- 30 times on various buses over the course of my life.

I experience racism and sexism in exactly the same way. I can’t speak to what others perceive trumps one over the other. I feel it both in the same way. Bullying and prejudice happen because of the way I look to others. I look like a woman therefore men have sexually assaulted me.
I look like an Indian therefore men and women of all colours have called me namesIncluding a black woman who once started screaming at me that I was a Terrorist Witch. Usually I get a combination of both. Usually I sit near the driver on a bus now. I also learned the trick of standing up in my seat and quoting Shakespeare loudly at the insult thrower which makes them think I am batshit crazy and worry I might go loco. I think I learned this Act more crazy technique from Mel Gibson in the Lethal Weapon films.

But to me the experience feels the same. In a way I have been able to explain to white female friends what racism feels like by saying this. And my friends have understood.

My friend who got his teeth knocked out, you’ll be pleased to know he grew up to have a lovely wife and child. I recently wrote a poem about him to show to his son.

BraveGoldie · 08/07/2020 00:50

@Ginnyhip46 thank you for sharing your experiences and I am so sorry you have experienced so much prejudice first hand. I am really glad some people spoke up to defend you and hope this will become more and more common.

HeistSociety · 08/07/2020 01:06

[quote BraveGoldie]@HeistSociety glad it was useful. Yes I think responding from the heart is very important (in the end, it isn't a philosophical/theoretical discussion for people experiencing it...)

I think we all need to find our own way.

I personally don't get wrapped up in a lot of the philosophizing and theorizing.

Not sure what you mean by white affinity group - for me being an ally isn't to do with being in any group. It's just a personal choice about what you think and do each day. [/quote]
White affinity groups are part of modern diversity training.