Can white women be allies to BME women?

[missyoumuch]

It feels like while women want black women to prioritize their sex over their race as an identity and seem incapable of accepting that BME women have multiple identities. And they often do not behave as allies insisting that their experiences of sexism mean that they can’t be racist (untrue) or that because women are 50% of the population then women’s issues should supersede ethnic minority issues.

www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/politics/a22717725/what-is-toxic-white-feminism/

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/jun/19/women-deliver-launches-investigation-into-internal-racism-allegations?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

www.cnbc.com/2020/06/19/oped-its-time-for-white-female-executives-to-help-black-women-at-work.html

@DreadPirateLuna

Nope the idea of 2 + 2 equaling 4 is cultural and because of western imperialism/colonization, we think of it as the only way of knowing.

I assumed that was satire but the line between satire and reality is getting very thin these days.

Apart from all the other nonsensical things about this statement, mathematics owes a lot to India and the Islamic world. That's why we call them Arabic numbers, and why the words for algebra and algorithm derive from Arabic.

Arabic people seem to get called white when they say the wrong things, so why not Arabic math?

Arabic people seem to get called white when they say the wrong things, so why not Arabic math?

True. Thinking of it, the actually consistent argument of the PoMo crowd* should be: 'White people using Maths is cultural appropriation. Stop it!'

(*We all know that the actual hatred the PoMo crowd have for Maths and want to abolish it is that Maths has laways been too hard for them. Which is why they didn't study science. And they just can't stomach not being the smartest person in the room...)

@deepwatersolo

Honestly, imagine the laughter if I claimed that the concept of science was sexist, or mathematics was against the working class. I'd be ridiculed as a crank.

To be fair, there are (neoliberal) economic theories that are half baked, do demonstrably not work as advertised, are (wrongly) touted as highly scientific and very strong, only because they work to make the elites richer... Steve Keen's 'Debunking Economics' sums it up quite well. So, I don't dispute that the nimbus of science can be used to perpetuate bullshit. And academia is not always free enough to self correct (see also postmodernist gender studies).

So, I understand the criticism that science is often misused to perpetuate power structures. But that is a problem of corrupted science (by donor pressure...), not a problem of science being intrinsically bad.

I find I often feel caught between two cray extremes. On the one side are these people who think that mathematics are products of whiteness, or biology is colonialist.

On the other hand there are these people who are basically adherents of scientism, who don't understand that there can e other valid models for knowing or using language, or who don't see that there is such a thing as an epistemology of science, or understand the limits and blind spots of scientific investigation. And all of that is completely different than corruption of science.

Goosefoot, I hear you. There is corrupted science, in the obvious sense (like the donor pressure I mentioned), and then there are ,blind spots‘. But I have to say that very often those ‚blind Spots‘ are not just ‚Happening‘. Like Chomsky describes it in ‚manufacturing consent‘ the Structures are such that ‚Group Think‘ perpetuates itself in a way that protects power. A Paul Krugman genuinely cannot understand what‘s wrong with his economic ideas and is baffled when Steve Keen critiques them. He Genuinely can‘t wrap his head around That critique. If je could, je wouldn‘t have gotten in the Position je is in. Only people subscribing to the orthodoxy of neoclassical economics get into those positions. So, sure, it‘s a blind spot, but it is a systematic blind Spot the System perpetuates by design. This is also a form of corruption in my book, systemic corruption.

On the other hand there are these people who are basically adherents of scientism, who don't understand that there can e other valid models for knowing or using language, or who don't see that there is such a thing as an epistemology of science, or understand the limits and blind spots of scientific investigation. And all of that is completely different than corruption of science.

I studied for my science PGCE back in the early noughties and the nature of science, the scientific method and the development and limitation of models in science teaching was given a great amount of emphasis at that time. There was also a time when GCSE courses looked at how scientific ideas changed over time and the limitations of scientific models.

Sadly, these topics were never really given the emphasis they deserved - even up to A Level. I think many teachers studied STEM subjects at degree level viewing it as a ‘body of knowledge’ in much the same way that they had learnt the subject at school and so dismiss its importance. It’s a shame as, to me, it was always one of the most interesting aspects of teaching the subject.

Bret Weinstein has done several podcasts on the scientific method and how he taught it at Evergreen. His work on ‘broken mice’ that is outlined on his brother Eric’s podcast channel is also very interesting and highlights some of the issues in modern academic research and publication.

I have no personal story or personal experience here, and not even really sure why I crawled my way in, but I am a white liberal leaning male from the USA, and this thread is an epitome of how Trump somehow ended up getting elected.

samyeagar Trump got elected because the Democratic Party has abandoned the working class, including working class communities where young men with no other options for a college education than the military died as cannon fodder in the wars the Democrats came to support.
There is even a study that concluded Hillary‘s loss was down to high casualty numbers in communities she lost. The study concluded that without Libya she would have won.
Trump made anti-interventionist noises and anti-trade deal noises. He attacked Hillary from the LEFT, ffs.
And Biden is the same let down. Pro-war, anti Medicare4All. His only chance lies in the fact that Trump has shown himself for the fraud he is. (And yet, he has so far started less wars than Obama, I think. Despite absurdities like cancelling the Iran deal and getting Bolton in.) And what do the Democrats do? Embrace the Neocons. Talk about doing your best to clutch defeat from the jaws of victory.

@TheRealMcKenna

On the other hand there are these people who are basically adherents of scientism, who don't understand that there can e other valid models for knowing or using language, or who don't see that there is such a thing as an epistemology of science, or understand the limits and blind spots of scientific investigation. And all of that is completely different than corruption of science.

I studied for my science PGCE back in the early noughties and the nature of science, the scientific method and the development and limitation of models in science teaching was given a great amount of emphasis at that time. There was also a time when GCSE courses looked at how scientific ideas changed over time and the limitations of scientific models.

Sadly, these topics were never really given the emphasis they deserved - even up to A Level. I think many teachers studied STEM subjects at degree level viewing it as a ‘body of knowledge’ in much the same way that they had learnt the subject at school and so dismiss its importance. It’s a shame as, to me, it was always one of the most interesting aspects of teaching the subject.

Bret Weinstein has done several podcasts on the scientific method and how he taught it at Evergreen. His work on ‘broken mice’ that is outlined on his brother Eric’s podcast channel is also very interesting and highlights some of the issues in modern academic research and publication.

I'll have to look those podcasts up, that sounds very interesting.

Looking at it as a body of knowledge is a good description I think. (And as a humanities person I increasingly see the same thing there.) Here in Canada it seems similar in the sciences. I went to a liberal arts college which has a department that taught history and philosophy of science, and most of our science students did some courses there.

However, my husband studied chemistry at a more conventional university and says there was nothing in the department that talked about the philosophical underpinnings of science at all. Which seems crazy to me, and very limiting as a scientist.

@samyeagar

I have no personal story or personal experience here, and not even really sure why I crawled my way in, but I am a white liberal leaning male from the USA, and this thread is an epitome of how Trump somehow ended up getting elected.

We're not sure why you crawled in either. Signed, Woman who's voted on the left for longer than you've been alive.

Hm. I think you will often be treated better in a, say, predominantly ‚white‘ country, if you are white. (And you‘ll be treated better if you are perceived as local). Tribalism is a thing, racism is a thing. And looking at the US situation, where water fountains for whites were a thing up til the 60‘s or so, and where police treats you very differently based on skin color (I wouldn’t want to interact with police there if I were a black man.)
I still feel the throwing around of the ‚white privilege‘ term masks how the working class is being exploited. Looking at the life of some white factory worker and drowning on about white privilege feels utterly ridiculous.
It is like ignoring the elephant in the room - class based oppression. Heck, I‘ve come to believe that racism (‚water Fountains for whites‘ and whatnot) has been specifically used to shut working class whites up about working class rights and keep workers divided, unable to fight for a level playing field, united. And just like segregation was used to divide Us, today it is the ‚white privilege‘ cudgel that keeps people separated, unable to fight for change together.
It is very disheartening.

Thats strange, being that many of the police are black themselves. Dont get hung up on the opinions of those that shout the loudest. theyre often the least rational.

nypost.com/2020/06/20/muhammad-alis-son-says-he-wouldve-hated-black-lives-matters/?utm_source=zergnet.com&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=zergnet_5349385

The usa, while racism still occurs, is one of the least racist countries on earth. Its certainly impossible to judge your own country unless you've left it to experience another, which many have not, and therefore have a poor comprehension of what institutional racism actually is.

Are you asking me not to believe my lying eyes? There is ample footage that demonstrates the distinct treatment by police, even in these very demonstrations. There is also footage of some white ,don‘t tread on me‘ people at one of their demonstrations, shouting in policemen‘s faces and taunting them without pushback by police. (if they were black, they‘d long have been ‚disciplined‘ by those policemen,). Talk about those shouting the loudest.

I think there is statistical evidence that in the US, black people are harassed more often than white people, by the police. There are claims that it's the nexus of poverty/race leading to this differential treatment.

The stats for police murder are murkier.

And looking at the US situation, where water fountains for whites were a thing up til the 60‘s or so

So they haven't been a thing for over half a century because the american government recognised it was wrong. Institutionally racist countries dont tent to see things in that manner.

The stats for police murder are murkier

As more unarmed whites were killed by cops than blacks.

Also, if were going into stats then it cant be ignored that blacks commit disproportionately more violent crime by a significant amount so of course the police presence will be more vigilant. Thats to be expected though

The numbers are clear. The probability of Black men being searched and ending up in prison for drug possession is way higher than for whites, even though the ratios of drug possession are the same. It is a direct result of racially discriminate policing (stop and frisk anyone?) that the prions are still full of Black men locked away for the nonviolent offence of marijuana possession, while white men with similar proclivities have made themselves multi million businesses of it after legalization.
Yeah, I know that cop lethally shooting a Black ten or twelve year old kid touting a toy gun no questions asked is also just one video, and....
It is hard to believe you are genuinely so blind to this ever repeating reality. Do you think Slavery was real? John Crow? Water fountains for whites only? Do you think those attitudes magically disappeared with the laws? And what is MLK up to these days? Enjoying his old age in the Hamptons?

@DivineTruth

The stats for police murder are murkier

As more unarmed whites were killed by cops than blacks.

Also, if were going into stats then it cant be ignored that blacks commit disproportionately more violent crime by a significant amount so of course the police presence will be more vigilant. Thats to be expected though

I think it's presence of a gun that increases chance of murder by cop in the US, and poverty + race that increases the chance of interaction with police.

The US has many problems. Gun culture isn't going away, and it is interlinked with police brutality.

I think sometimes the data doesn't show us everything, either. I don't know that I buy America has no systemic racism. I mean, it exists in my Anglophone country.

@Falleninwithabadcrowd
BAME stands for Black and Minority Ethnicities
BME the same just shortened without the 'and

does the Google not work on your device

Yes. Or perhaps a more accurate way to describe it would be institutional racism. It's not always villainous in intent, and can often look more like paternalism. Sometimes it's just out and out racial prejudice spreading virally through a work force.

It's been deleted, so it seems as if you're talking about me, and I'm no MRA.