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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rebecca Wrong-Daily Sacked

400 replies

Sexnotgender · 25/06/2020 15:23

For apparently sharing something anti-Semitic.

Oh dear how sad.

OP posts:
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5
Justhadathought · 28/06/2020 23:36

If I can criticise Trump, Boris, Erdogan, then Netanyahu is fair game

Yes, of course, but when criticism of one particular state becomes a central plank of your movement, and when everything is brought back to its door ( including the actions of a few police officers in another country - albeit another hated country - that is the U,S.A) then it is fair and reasonable to star un-packing why that might be.

You can't pull the wool over the eyes of people who have been around left politics for a long time, and know exactly how central Israel/Palestine is to its narrative.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 04:16

@LilMissRe Sorry you felt ignored! I’ve replied to your questions below, though all of your questions have been addressed at least thematically in this thread.

1-Can I be anti-israeli (gov/policy) and not be considered anti semitic?

No you cannot ordinarily be anti-Israeli, as explained previously in the thread. Yes, you can oppose an Israeli government or government policy if this is about issues. To oppose the Israeli government overall is weird; like saying “I’m anti British government”... all of them? You’d prefer a monarchy? You want Britain to cease to exist? You need to be specific, if you’re not in opposition to the State of Israel existing.

I dislike many of the policies that have emerged under Likud, at a domestic level, but I would dislike them anywhere else. For example, I think stores should open 7 days a week without “Sunday times” or “Shabbat hours” because your choice to be at home shouldn’t ruin my weekend. My issue is with shop opening times, and so I don’t say “I’m anti Britain” or “I’m anti religious” but more “I’m anti short opening hours.”

Equally, you need to be consistent. If you oppose the treatment of Palestinians by Israel, you should be able to describe precisely what you mean by that. Equally, where other countries do the same - you should condemn them equally. If you don’t, that suggests your issue is with Israel more than it is about the treatment of Palestinians. Where countries, like Lebanon, treat Palestinians worse than Israel does - we would anticipate that you speak more about the treatment of Palestinians in that context than you would in Israel.

If you don’t do that, it suggests that specific issues are not really what bothers someone - it’s more a vessel to oppose Israel as an entity, as a people, a tactic used by anti semites.

2-Can I criticise some of the discriminatory attitudes towards different demographics and intra-jewish racism in Israel without being anti-Semitic?

Depends on what you believe about those discriminatory attitudes. Once again, the formula in my first response stands. If you use tropes or anti semitism to explain or use to deride those relationships between demographics, then no, you can’t - you’d be an anti-Semite. If you have something specific you’d like to say on this, and you’re worried it’s anti Semitic, say it and I’m happy to talk about it.

The second part of this question is unclear: you are asking if you can criticise the dynamic between Ashkenazim and Mizrahim, or even Ethiopian Jews without being anti-Semitic? Calling for equality is not an issue of Judaism, it’s an issue of fairness. So if you feel strongly about equality in all demographics, then yes, not a problem. If you talk about “how Jews even exploit lesser Jews” then no, you’re being anti-Semitic because the implication is that Jewish people are exploitative. If you only actively voice these issues about Israel, then that’s a questionable standard to single them out for.

3- Can I be offended by the following paragraphs and vocalise my concerns but not be considered anti-semitic?

The question is: what do you find offensive about the paragraphs? This taps into the religious-ethnicity debate in Israel with regard to one form of visa for Jewish people (making Aaliyah). For reference, I have an Israeli passport as does my DH, neither of us are Jewish. I am white, he is Arab (and from a country that Israel are at war with). I work there for half of the year, and have never had issues with immigration. Nor has he. That aside, Palestinians also have routed to citizenship should they want it. This is an article written on a really specific topic, and elements of this are not true in a broader context eg forbidden entry.

If you’re offended by some of the quotes, I’d raise some questions as to where they’re from. So the quote about cancer in the body of a nation is false. It’s actually a 1953 quote from the Egyptian President which states “Israel is a cancer in the body of the Arab world.” So be wary of stuff like that. I’m a Haaretz subscriber and generally like their stuff, but as with all news media, it’s imperfect and comes with a clear agenda. There are no citations in what you posted, and I’m currently in the UAE and too far from my unrestricted internet laptop but maybe there were some in the article?

Where I think, and I’ll be honest with you, I think you’re making a bit of an error (an error that could imply a little anti semitism, or at least conflation) is this statement: “Israel and Israeli policy does not represent all Jewish people.” Conflating worldwide Jews with the Israeli state is exactly what anti semites do to abuse Jews under the guise of being “anti-Israel.” It’s fair to say “the policies of the Israeli government do not represent all Israeli people.”

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 05:00

Acknowledge it or not, and it is clear that you won't, and which is why this will further destroy the Labour party, but the far left's issue has always been with Israel

You seem to be confusing me with someone who is Far Left.

And are making massive assumptions about my beliefs.

Maybe there's a word for the prejudice you seem to be exhibiting towards me.

andyoldlabour · 29/06/2020 12:26

Here is an article by Peter Beinart which looks at Zionism and Anti Semitism.
There may be 9 million citizens in Israel, but there are 5 million more people who do not have citizen status.

www.theguardian.com/news/2019/mar/07/debunking-myth-that-anti-zionism-is-antisemitic

SuckingDieselFella · 29/06/2020 12:32

Here is yet another Labourite obsessing about Jews Israel.

They never learn.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 12:42

@andyoldlabour Further to my reply to you after you used misleading and extremist sources upthread: just because one writer at The Guardian says it is so, doesn’t mean it is. There is a clear scholarship on how anti-Zionism has become a hiding ground for anti-semitism, as explained already. Opposing the evolving definition of anti-Semitism means you are failing to recognise the problem or are complicit in it. Neither is acceptable.

LilMissRe · 29/06/2020 15:44

@sergeilavrov. thank you for your reply- I really appreciate it :)

Conflating worldwide Jews with the Israeli state is exactly what anti semites do to abuse Jews under the guise of being “anti-Israel.” It’s fair to say “the policies of the Israeli government do not represent all Israeli people.”

I agree- but I'm not the one conflating-that's my point. I think everyone else is conflating Israel with all Jews which is the issue I have; that I cannot criticise the actions of state governments like the Israeli one, without the fear of offending a non Israeli Jew somewhere else in the world and being branded anti-semitic. What has this got to do with them? unless they're Israeli themselves or living in Israel, how does this apply to them? I say this because I suspect I would not have the same fear/anxiety if I complained against the behaviour/policies of the Saudi government, the Turkish government, the Chinese/Indian/ American govt. There are sooo many things those countries do that anger me and I voice them, and I think I should be able to voice my concerns of the Israeli govt too- theres a standard I hold for all, so in my mind, its fair game. I don't think this makes me anti- a whole country. It just makes me anti that policy, that treatment, party etc.

Justhadathought · 29/06/2020 15:52

Maybe there's a word for the prejudice you seem to be exhibiting towards me

What prejudice? And if it was prejudice what sort of prejudice would it be? I'm trying to imagine......

I'm simply responding to your posts with a counter view.

Justhadathought · 29/06/2020 15:53

Interesting article on this issue: Does Israel train America’s police forces: www.spectator.co.uk/article/does-israel-train-america-s-police-forces.

Justhadathought · 29/06/2020 15:56

And are making massive assumptions about my beliefs

I'm not "assuming" anything. I'm reading your words, and your arguments and responding. Nobody accused you of being 'far left'. but it is a fact that the far left has had a major issue with Israel that goes back a long way. It is obsessional.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 16:14

@LilMissRe I guess I’d ask you to tell me an issue that is specific to Israel, and thus wouldn’t be singling Israel out. I’m not sure I can think of one. That doesn’t mean you can’t criticise Israeli policies, but rather than criticism should be targeting policies - not the State of Israel overall. For example, I’ve asked those with critique over the Israeli record on Palestine on this thread about their feelings on Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. None have chosen to respond, despite the treatment of Palestinians being far worse in those countries. I mean with with all openness and not trying to be an arse, if you can give me an example it would help, as I’m finding it difficult to think of one myself. It’s this singling out, making them distinctly available for criticism above all others doing the same things or worse, that makes it anti-semitism because the only distinction is that it’s a Jewish state.

This is true of a lot of situations. For example, the hypocrisy about the killing of Jamal Khashoggi. The outcry about extrajudicial killings from other countries wasn’t genuine: all governments do this and many get caught. What is unacceptable is that Saudi Arabia is a dictatorship far from the West who have ample control over scarce resources, and thus they are punished more for doing something everyone else does. It’s hypocrisy. So I wouldn’t agree that it’s fair to say that about Saudi, either. The difference between Saudi and Israel is that Israel is a country largely made up of people who have been systematically persecuted throughout history: anti-semitism began millennia before the Holocaust. It is too often used as a method by anti-semites.

Another question to ponder is this. Say there is some specific policy that justifies unique critique for Israel, and Jewish people are offended by your stance despite it being fully justified, being expressed without implication of inclusion of all Jewish people, contextualised, and you are genuinely not harbouring some strange anti-semitism. It’s telling that everyone now feels so on edge, and ready to receive anti-Semitic abuse. In the same way, in the US, when a black person gets pulled over by police they are ready for conflict: it precipitates a cycle. It’s not up to black people, or Jewish people, to break a cycle of racism that targets them. If people on the left want to have a sensible, and well intentioned conversation about Israeli policies, they have to demonstrate that by fully committing to anti-Semitism. No half measures, no kicked off the front bench - full inquiries, lifetime bans, engaging with the Jewish community.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 19:32

Nobody accused you of being 'far left'. but it is a fact that the far left has had a major issue with Israel that goes back a long way. It is obsessional

I suppose it occurred to you that people other than the Far Left sometime talk about Israel and the issues over the territories as well.

It's not just something exclusive to the Far Left.

And yet you decide to bring it up when someone talks about Israel, in a debate about Israel and anti-semitism and you bring it up in the replies and conversation with them.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 19:38

For example, I’ve asked those with critique over the Israeli record on Palestine on this thread about their feelings on Lebanon, Syria and Jordan. None have chosen to respond, despite the treatment of Palestinians being far worse in those countries

One of the parts of the definition of anti-semitism is:

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation

Israel is a democratic nation. The others in your list aren't democracies. The human rights records towards many groups in those countries you listed are appalling. Wouldn't Israel want to have human right standards which compare to other democracies instead of those countries you have listed?

Goosefoot · 29/06/2020 19:44

Ah - there are people who talk about whole nations as problem constructs. I'm not sure how anyone can seriously claim that doesn't happen. I can think of three off the top of my head.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 19:50

@chomalungma As I have said, several times on this thread, the treatment of Palestinians by Israel is far superior to how they are treated in those non-democracies listed. Equally, Egypt is a democracy, and their treatment of Palestinians is extremely poor compared to Israeli standards. In fact, human rights across the board are far superior in Israel e.g. gay rights, women's rights, legal rights, social welfare in what is a very socialist country. So yes, Israel does want to have better human rights than their neighbours, and achieves this across the board.

Anyway, if the real issue was Palestinian treatment, this wouldn't matter. If the issue was human rights in democracies, Israel would not be the focus (USA, Egypt). Forcing an issue to be so specific e.g. the treatment of Palestinians by non-Arab democratic countries comes off as trying very hard to target Israel. This raises some questions.

As an aside to this, in political science we don't have a binary definition of democracy. It's on a scale like Polity IV or Freedom House. May interest you.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 19:52

@chomalungma Just another aside to your other post, calling Palestine "the territories" is quite offensive and disrespectful to Palestinians. In both Palestine and Israel, it's regarded as either Palestine or the West Bank/Gaza.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 20:07

Forcing an issue to be so specific e.g. the treatment of Palestinians by non-Arab democratic countries comes off as trying very hard to target Israel. This raises some questions

Many human rights issues are targeted in this world. It's not the only issue out there people talk about.

The fact people ignore that fact also raises some questions.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 20:08

In both Palestine and Israel, it's regarded as either Palestine or the West Bank/Gaza

Well that goes to show that it's not something I discuss or obsess about very much then, doesn't it.

ListeningQuietly · 29/06/2020 20:17

Can those going into obsessive detail about Israel / Palestine
not see that they are part of Labour's problem?

The Middle East will not be resolved in the dining rooms of North London.

The left needs to realise that the only people who can actually sort the issue are the people on the ground.
All else is imperialism we know better than you.

Chances are the IDF were originally trained by the UK and the Americans
so its full circle back to the Imperial powers who drew map lines in stupid places a century ago.

If the Labour party wants to be in a position to govern
it needs to find a way to represent all of those that the Tory party does not

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 20:44

@chomalungma Sadly, these mistakes are often made by those who are obsessed by the issue and simply uneducated on it, such as anti-Semites.

SuckingDieselFella · 29/06/2020 21:07

Four days later they are still going on about Jews Israel.

Obsession? Yes.

A demonstration of why Corbyn's Labour lost the election so badly?

Hell yes.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 21:21

Four days later they are still going on about Jews Israel

People are saying things, making points and others are responding.

That's how MN works.

Sadly, these mistakes are often made by those who are obsessed by the issue and simply uneducated on it, such as anti-Semites

I am sure those kind of people know exactly what sort of buttons to press to get a reaction, who start threads on MN and elsewhere about the issues and who comment on every single thread like this - because that's what obsession with an issue looks like. They probably also spend plenty of time on closed Facebook groups discussing it, have plenty of facts and links at their fingertips and are forever using Twitter and other platforms to share their views, retweet stuff and to show support for people who express their views.

That's what obsession with an issue looks like.

sergeilavrov · 29/06/2020 21:24

@chomalungma Not sure if you’re trying to imply I’m an anti-Semite or obsessive there? Could you clarify? Middle East diplomacy is my field of work.

chomalungma · 29/06/2020 22:04

Not sure if you’re trying to imply I’m an anti-Semite or obsessive there

I am not talking about you at all. I am talking about what an obsessive anti-semite would look like.

andyoldlabour · 30/06/2020 11:45

Questioning the actions of a state - Saudi Arabia, US, UK, France, Israel etc - does not mean you hate the ordinary civilians living in those states, it simply means that you wish individual states to be held accountable for their crimes against humanity.
Whether it is the muder of Kashoggi in Turkey or the slaughter of innocent Yemenis or the indiscriminate use of military force against Palestinians, they are all wrong and the perpetrators should be tried at the ICC in the Hague.
Unfortunately, is a country is an ally of the US, the ICC will not come into play, due to a mechanism put in place by George W Bush.

www.hrw.org/news/2002/08/03/us-hague-invasion-act-becomes-law

www.diplomatic-council.org/node/432

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