Rebecca Wrong-Daily Sacked

[Sexnotgender]

For apparently sharing something anti-Semitic.

Oh dear how sad.

I was highly critical of RLB during the leadership election, but both MP and RLB are quite correct about US police departments receiving training from Israel. There are plenty of certified reports on trustworthy media sources about it.

www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-us-police-training-end-knee-neck-protests

www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-for-u-s-police-refusing-israeli-training-is-not-bds-it-s-common-sense-1.6718491

www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/joint-us-israel-police-and-law-enforcement-training

The reason 'occupation' as a term is linked to anti-semitism, is because of its widespread use by anti-semites to describe the Israeli position in Palestine

It is complicated - and my knowledge of the situation comes from TV documentaries, the media (with all its biases) and Google.

I would be interested to visit the area and see for myself, to talk to people on all sides and those in the middle and see for myself.

@andyoldlabour Receiving training, as they do from the British police, is not the issue - it's the idea that the shouldn't because they should BDS Israel or the implication that Israel trains officers to use these deadly tactics on suspects. Did you read the sources you provided?

Middle East Eye?! Really? It’s pro-Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood. Some of the founders even directly funded Hamas, a terror organisation who are anti-Semitic and seek to destroy Israel. Let’s just skip over that one, shall we?

I’m unsure if you have a subscription to Haaretz, so perhaps you couldn’t read the full article, but the article does not make any claims about Israel teaching these techniques. Instead, she writes about Israeli army presence in the West Bank as a form of policing (they are the only group authorised to enter Palestine and are responsible for training Palestinian police, Israelis usually are not allowed to enter Palestine).

The first source is the best one, really, even though it's outdated. So do tell me which bits of the Israeli training of US police that emphasised "police legitimacy, through a proactive reliance on community resources that seek to change crime-causing conditions" is where they train officers to crush the windpipe of suspects? Because that's illegal in Israel, and police are not trained to do that.

They even taught them deescalation tactics... as do the British.

@chomalungma I would totally recommend it, once coronavirus clears up! There are lots of NGOs who can take you to the Gaza security fence, and tell the story of both those who are in Gaza as well as those in the nearby town Sderot. And then, in Jerusalem, visiting the Knesset, seeing the Old City and its security (the Jordanians manage the Al Aqsa compound), East Jerusalem on Friday is something really interesting.

The West Bank is very accessible too: Ramallah, you can go and meet people and talk about their difficulties and struggles, I think B'Tselem in Tel Aviv still offer guidance (an Israeli NGO who work to highlight human rights abuses). I'd suggest visiting a settlement too, settlers are often hated by Israelis for the damage they do to peace, but many are forced to live there due to cheaper housing. Palestinians fight for jobs in these areas, because of the pay and interestingly relations with many are good. It's a strange environment, very unique, and not true in all cases. Boycotting produce from those settlements means Palestinians lose jobs which can be devastating.

I think the Asian rise in the UK politically at least illustrates how for the UK it is educational level (and thus class) more than skin colour which determines how you get on

I think you're right, and closely aligned to this ( to educational attainment) is the culture and values you live by.

I'm shocked at so many posters arguing that this wasn't anti Semitic.

It was a blatant attempt to link the death of George Floyd to Israel and thus culpability.

Whilst Israel may have provided training to the US police there is zero evidence that the police officers involved were the recipients of said training.

Additionally there is no evidence that such training incorporated this technique.

Finally it's already been stated that:

"The Minneapolis Police Department manual states that neck restraints are basically reserved for when an officer feels caught in a life or death situation, which did not appear to be the case with George Floyd".

In other words the officer involved did not follow either the training or guidelines provided by his own police force.

So what purpose did mentioning an improbably tenuous link between Israel and George Floyds death serve?

If RLB didn't understand the narrative being expressed here then she doesn't deserve a place in the shadow cabinet because she'd demonstrated both poor cognitive skills and judgement in the context of a party that's pledged to root out anti Semitic behaviour.

If she did understand then frankly she doesn't deserve to be in the Labour Party.

Starmer pledged to be tough on this issue and she left him no choice especially as she refused to apologise.

Frankly I'm glad she's gone from the shadow cabinet and think she's utterly over rated as an MP.

I'm sure there were other tensions in the relationship between Long Bailey/the left and Kier Starmer prior to this 'final straw'; for example, as education minister I believe she was backing the unions 'resistance' stance to wards children returning to school, rather than Kier Starmer's stated intention to get the children back as soon as possible.

What this incident has done is expose the deep fracture in the Labour party. The cleft which meant that Labour could not win the election. It had to happen sooner or later, if Labour were ever to have a chance of winning again. Maybe Momentum will form a break-away party? And hopefully they take their identity politics with them.

Maybe Momentum will form a break-away party? And hopefully they take their identity politics with them.

Yes that would be a good result.

If RLB didn't understand the narrative being expressed here then she doesn't deserve a place in the shadow cabinet because she'd demonstrated both poor cognitive skills and judgement in the context of a party that's pledged to root out anti Semitic behaviour.

I think this is the point. She should have read the article before sharing, and at this point she has no excuse not to be aware of anti-semitic conspiracy theories, the problem of anti-semitism in the Labour Party.

The reason 'occupation' as a term is linked to anti-semitism, is because of its widespread use by anti-semites to describe the Israeli position in Palestine

But it is in general use throughout the world to describe the situation wrt to Israel/Palestine. 'The occupied territories'. What word would you prefer? Because trying to prevent the use of the word sounds like trying to whitewash the situation.

@fliesandpies No, the term occupation is in use around the world in contexts where the land is annexed or controlled by an invading force. E.g. British occupation of Iraq. Since the Oslo Accords, this has not been the case.

Until an agreement is signed, you could correctly state that: "Settlers occupy significant parts of Palestinian land" - but not Palestine, because they do not occupy the state of Palestine, and to say so is a disservice to the government there.

You could not say 'Jewish settlers' or even 'Israeli settlers', as most are not from Israel (often those who move to settlements from abroad - especially Russia - are forced to do so due to limited income) and many, many of them are evangelical Christians from the US.

It was a blatant attempt to link the death of George Floyd to Israel and thus capability

^^This

What was said was blatantly untrue, and the latest in a very, very long tradition of blaming Jews for world calamities that they have done nothing to cause. In other words, an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.

There is an article in today’s Economist criticising those in the current Israeli government discussing the annexation of parts of the West Bank; that is valid criticism of Israel (and a view shared by many Israelis and other Jews). What was said is nothing of the sort.

Racist American cops have been standing on the necks of black men since long before Israel existed.

Anybody trying to absolve those cops by blaming Israel
is defending racism

PS
Long Bailey has been singularly atrocious at her job.
Gavin Williamson has screwed over a whole generation of children
and she has not held him to account

Anybody trying to absolve those cops by blaming Israel is defending racism

Absolutely.

That's why it's a spectacular double whammy from RLB and the fact she can't understand that is why she's not fit for the front bench (or even to be an MP imho).

sergeilavrov although I understand the distinction you are making and I dislike misuse of language, but the term 'The Occupied Territories' has been in use for decades to describe this situation.

It also doesn't help anyone to try to understand the situation better if we start trying to ban the description and will only serve to promote the idea that people are attempting to deny what's happening by changing the language around it.

the fact she can't understand that is why she's not fit for the front bench (or even to be an MP imho)

Yes. She doesn't understand 'collective responsibility' or loyalty to the party as a whole, she's probably spent her whole time in Labour living in a faction.

@FliesandPies Just because something has been done for a long time (and note, your claim about this being in world wide usage is not - it's not even used in much of the Middle East, and not China, the parts of Africa I work in etc.) doesn't make it right. Just like a lot of the injustices that have gone on for too long, we need to start holding ourselves accountable for our language because it is important. Was this language relevant when it started to be used? Probably. Is it relevant now? No, since the Oslo Accords. I'm sure we can all think of terms that were once used, and are not unacceptable either due to our better knowledge or a change in situation.

Deny what is happening? Occupation? Well, yes, we do deny that. Almost all scholars and experts in this area deny that Israel occupies Palestine. It's this sort of general language that causes problems.

The first thing we do when we negotiate between parties in both Israel and Palestine is set parameters for appropriate language and terminology, because otherwise there are misunderstandings and we can't come to an agreement. We also determine what arguments won't be raised, due to factual inaccuracies.

Quite frankly, the way to tell the difference between Palestinian activism and anti-Israel (and often anti-Semitic) activism is simple. If people are genuinely concerned with the cause of the Palestinian people, most of their campaigning targets Lebanon, Syria and Jordan whose treatment of these people includes forced internment for over half a century, gross human rights abuses. I've been to many countries where they refer to Palestinians as 'dogs', and Israel is not one of them.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel

That is the thing. People who say that any criticism of Israel is an attack against Jews are doing exactly that.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews

Same criticism. I have seen it said that criticising George Soros is anti-semitism. I personally have not investigated all the things that Soros is accused of, but like any human being he is not above criticism and I only found out that he is Jewish when I learnt that any criticism of him is anti-semitism.

This is not be a long-shot either a defense of RLB or a defense of anti-semitism, but let us not devalue such a serious epithet. Like the term transphobia where the word gets so loosely applied that it has lost all meaning.

Almost all scholars and experts in this area deny that Israel occupies Palestine

Have you got some source for that? Because the only people I know who deny it are those who also seek to deny the right of Palestine to be fully recognised as a state. A simple Google search of 'Occupied Territories' will bring up a huge number of sites discussing Israel/Palestine history and conflict.

You are not going to help the cause of peace in this area by denying what is happening.

The link between George Floyd and Palestine is irrelevant and tenuous.

He was killed by a racist American police officer.

Trying to deflect blame away from that officer in ANY WAY
is defending racism.

THAT is why RLB had to go.

[quote SuckingDieselFella]@Goosefoot
"If someone makes statements about Jewish capitalists that are the same kinds of statements they make about other capitalists, and it's not about any of them being Jewish, British, or Brazillian, it's about them being capitalists."

Nice try.

If it's about them being capitalists there's no need to mention their religion.[/quote]
Who said they did? That's the point, for goodness sake.

I think the fact that she did it, then refused to take it down demonstrates yet again how mainstream anti-semitism became in the Labour Party and is the "normal" for a significant streak of the Labour Party . Remember they still have the ECHR investigation ongoing as well and Starmer just couldn't do anything other than sack her (or stand her down as he put it)

I'm not sad. She was always known as a viscious hard left anti Semite denier. Starmer was probably delighted and didn't waste a crisis.

@FliesandPies You just demonstrated it yourself - the term is used in the scholarship on the HISTORY of the conflict. It's also critical to understand what 'occupation' refers to in the context of claims by Hamas and their allies. They mean that Tel Aviv is occupied Palestinian territory.

As far as sources, I'd recommend reviewing Michael Barnett's "Culture, strategy and foreign policy change: Israel's road to Oslo." It's one of the most highly cited pieces in the literature. If you prefer books, I'd recommend Making Peace With The PLO: The Rabin Government's Road To The Oslo Accord. It's by David Makovsky. Oslo is regarded as something called a 'paradigm shift.' You can also review sources on the withdrawal from Gaza under Ariel Sharon, named the Disengagement.

Again, could you please clarify what you think is happening?

Ultimately, you make peace by recognising the realities on the ground. No one is going to just go away, so you have to create realistic solutions that meet the tangible needs of people. I think this pragmatism helps the cause of peace greatly.

[quote Ritascornershop]@chomalungma - am I calling you anti-Semitic? I believe your attitudes show that if you have not reached the final destination you have at least willingly boarded that bus. You repeatedly state inaccuracies and when people correct you ignore them, or ignore questions. You haven’t answered my question about whether or not you are concerned with Canada, America, and Australia being “occupiers”. A lot of Indigenous people where I live refer to non-Indigenous citizens as settlers. Yet we don’t seem to attract the world’s attention and criticism. I wonder why that is.

And FYI, going to Auschwitz does not magically cleanse anyone of anti-Semitism. It does not exist so that people can go and claim it as a free pass. How distasteful. Also, see “I can’t be racist, I have a black friend.”[/quote]
Actually people talk about Canada, the US, and Australia being occupiers all the time. It's a big deal in politics in those countries, and the UN for example has chastised Canada about their treatment of indiginous people.

What complicates things somewhat is that this occurred very much historically and there isn't a clear answer. It's not like all of the citizens descended from settlers can just make an application to go back to their ancestral homelands.