Rebecca Wrong-Daily Sacked

[Sexnotgender]

For apparently sharing something anti-Semitic.

Oh dear how sad.

I don't want Labour to win power so am sad Rebecca LB has gone.
I also support the rights of people to say anything they like as freedom is more important than not upsetting people who have different views so am not keen on sackings for people forwarding tweets on but we live in such McCarthyist times that it may be best to keep off twitter for many MPs.

Shame Johnson displays such weakness that Jenrick and Cummings are still in post. The contrast between him and Starmer couldn’t be greater and now the latter’s ahead in the polls so beloved of the Tories.

Is what is in the article that Rebecca L-B shared, anti-Zionist rather than anti-Semitic? Or is anti-Zionism a form of anti-Semitism?

I thought that Zionism was a sort of denomination of Judaism. I found out that it is actually whether you support the state of Israel or not. Some (on Twitter) are saying that to be against Zionism is anti-Semitic but others say it's just like criticising the government - though I thought it was a good point made earlier about why is Israel focused on much more than other places.

Bluebooby
The article was trying to blame Israel for the fact that racist US cops killed a black man.

I do not know what box you want to put it in
but it was grossly inappropriate
and trying to give racists excuses for murder

I don't think Israel has anything to do with the murder of a man in the US.

Bluebooby
Have you read the article ?

Yes I have. I was asking more about Zionism because it was trending on Twitter and there are two different views, and it was like the conversation earlier in the thread about whether being anti Israel is anti-Semitic.

Bluebooby
The article was nasty and racist.
It does not need quantifying further.

The trap that the right allowed the left to walk headlong into
identity politics
trying to identify with / for / against every subdivision
stops people seeing the big picture

@BlueBooby In answer to your question: Zionism is really complex. It's not clearly agreed upon what that really means: non-religious, religious, historical, ongoing? However, as anti-semitism has increased in salience, more people identify with this term. You will find zionists who support Palestine and want to maintain the green line, you will find Zionists who believe in annexation of Palestine. You will find zionists in between. You will also find many people with all of those beliefs, or none, who don't like to use the word zionist.

However, the term 'zionist' and 'zio' have also become anti-semitic slurs (as per even Shami Chakribati's report into racism within the Labour party). The article feeds into beliefs that Israel is the institutionalised form of Jewish power, that impacts all world events. This type of accusation is to in line with Yisrael Gutman's definition of political anti-semitism, and is often used as supportive 'evidence' for those who demand that the process of emancipation for Jewish people is reversed. Gustavo Perednik writes around this, and you may find his work interesting.

If you've ever heard a conspiracy about the Rothschild family, or seen a cartoon depicting a Jewish person holding a puppet: it's the same concept.

Ok I really wasn't asking too much about the article as I said. I am very conscious that I can't always communicate well anymore but I try my best. I still don't see what is wrong with asking if anti-Zionism is the same as anti-Semitism tbh or how that is identity politics but whatever.

Oh sorry Serge I hadn't refreshed the page and thank you for answering. I am sorry if I asked wrong or it was a bad question or something.

@BlueBooby Not a bad question at all! The world would be a much better place if people asked questions when they weren't sure, instead of making assumptions.

There is a difference between a Nation State and any given ^government& of a nation state; although a lot of what we see coming from the left is the right to criticise the State of Israel . This does suggest that the existence of Israel, full stop, is the issue, and not simply the actions of any specific government.

It seems that it is true that there is a fundamental problem that the state of Israel should exist at all....which aligns the left with organisations such as Hamas, which have always stated that they would never rest until the state of Israel is destroyed.

This issue has long been absolutely fundamental to the left in Britain, and is why it dominates so much air time and protest time in relation to other conflicts around the world.

any given government of a nation state

This does suggest that the existence of Israel, full stop, is the issue, and not simply the actions of any specific government

It seems that it is true that there is a fundamental problem that the state of Israel should exist at all

Those are some big leaps you've made there....

FFS
give over on the Israel stuff
can you not see that you have triggered the trap
the minutiae of zionism / semitism are the identity politics end of racism
the right rub their hands with glee when you get bogged down in it

a racist US cop - following a 400 year pattern
killed a black guy - following a 400 year pattern

Maxine Peake's article tried to blame other than US cops for that
Long Bailey shared it
both were in the wrong

pop up out of your trench and see where the world is now, not where you want it to be

The left eats itself once again.

Good insights so far- but I still haven't had any clarification on my post earlier :)

Those are some big leaps you've made there

Not really.

Can you name any other situation in which a nation state is called into question for criticism, rather than a specific government of a country?

When you question a whole state, rather than a particular form of governance, it would suggest that there is a fundamental issue with the nature of that state, or what you perceive it stands for?

Listening, I've already said I wasn't really asking about the article. I don't know what this has to do with the left or the right. I was asking for me, so I could better understand what I had read on twitter. There are lots of things I dont know and I'd be the first to admit that. I don't know what your problem is or what you mean about getting out of a trench for example, but I won't ask.

Can you name any other situation in which a nation state is called into question for criticism, rather than a specific government of a country

Most countries when criticised are called by the country name.

Pakistan
USA
France
Australia
Saudi Arabia
Turkey
Russia
China
Malaysia

To name but a few.

@Justhadathought are we talking semantics here?

When someone blames "China"- are they tarnishing all Chinese people or they blaming the Chinese authorities/gov? Are they questioning the nature of China? or simply, the powers at be?

When someone blames Saudi Arabia for their atrocious human rights- are they blaming the Saudis themselves or those in power?

When I criticise Israel- I mean the gov and Netanyahu's party.

I'm pretty sure that, originally, Zionist just meant someone who supports the idea of a Jewish State (given that the Jews were a wandering people with no "home" as such , unlike, say, the Christians-there are many Christian countries.
Jews, like Christians, had been excluded from practicing their religion all over the Middle East (there were Jews in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Iraq etc etc)
Jews were never allowed to live in peace for long all over Europe for centuries, so the idea of a Jewish country had been around for a long time (I'm too tired to google this, but I think this idea was around a long while before WW2?)
So, to be anti Zion is to say that there should not be a Jewish state at all, I think?
Anyway, yes, ME politics is WAY complicated. Most people in the UK who have a strong stance about Palestine are a bit like Irish Americans who give money to the IRA. It's not helpful to anyone really.

If I can criticise Trump, Boris, Erdogan, then Netanyahu is fair game.

If I can say " Systemic racism in the US is rife" and not get attacked for it , it's fair game for me to say "Intra-jewish racism in Israel is rife" too

You cannot have one rule for one, and another for everyone else.

Most countries when criticised are called by the country name

Yes, country names are used, and specific governments or their policies are criticised but not usually the whole British/French/German State.

Acknowledge it or not, and it is clear that you won't, and which is why this will further destroy the Labour party, but the far left's issue has always been with Israel. Full stop.