Rebecca Wrong-Daily Sacked

[Sexnotgender]

For apparently sharing something anti-Semitic.

Oh dear how sad.

And the indigenous are often settlers too - eg some came across the arctic into the US; others worked their way up from South America sometimes killing others in the process although the original Australians were where they are for about 50,000 years so not quite the same as the Americans. Even in Europe I have Neanderthal genes (3%) and my ancestors worked their way from Africa, probably around the Iraq etc into Europe where they bred with the Neanderthals to an extent and we don't quite know how the latter died off but it is likely violence was involved from homo sapiens all of whom came from Africa originally.

That is the nice thing about all our genetics - we are all really African when you get back far enough.

@Goosefoot in Canada we talk about Indigenous land claims, poverty, residential schools etc. Almost no-one here speaks of us as “occupying” the land or as “occupiers”. The worst we get is “settlers”.

Yes we talk about it in Canada, but we do not get condemnation from the person in the street in Europe. Israel is the focus of the person in the street in Europe, not us, or America, or Australia.

And it’s not like modern Israelis can go back to the land of their ancestors - for one thing many of them are descended at least in part from indigenous Jews, the majority are mizrahi who are at least descended from people expelled from neighbouring countries in recent memory, and the remainder would not be welcomed with open arms back in Europe.

[quote Ritascornershop]@Goosefoot in Canada we talk about Indigenous land claims, poverty, residential schools etc. Almost no-one here speaks of us as “occupying” the land or as “occupiers”. The worst we get is “settlers”.

Yes we talk about it in Canada, but we do not get condemnation from the person in the street in Europe. Israel is the focus of the person in the street in Europe, not us, or America, or Australia.

And it’s not like modern Israelis can go back to the land of their ancestors - for one thing many of them are descended at least in part from indigenous Jews, the majority are mizrahi who are at least descended from people expelled from neighbouring countries in recent memory, and the remainder would not be welcomed with open arms back in Europe.[/quote]
I would disagree with that somewhat, I have been hearing the word occupation more and more in the context of indigenous rights. Though colonisers and colonialists has been more popular.

It's certainly not talked about as much outside of Canada, it isn't a particularly live issue internationally. But I think that's because it doesn't have as much international impact, mainly.

I'm not suggesting Israeli citizens should go back somewhere. More just that it is a much younger political arrangement and it's probably natural that it's seen as less established.

I think it is sad that moving into someone else's country is being justified by what happened in the Americas, Canada and Australia. I grew up being taught that two wrongs do not make a right.

And I have long made in known that would never step foot in Australia because of its very recent history of racism and discrimination against Aborigines.

To be honest, I don’t agree with it. However, I won’t lie, a part of me finds it extremely poetic. Live by the sword.......

But Coyocan, as people keep pointing out here, Jews have lived without time out in the land of Israel for millenium.

My point about North America & Australia was not that “two wrongs” make a right, but no one seems particularly concerned about the massive displacement of Indigenous people in those countries & I have never been called an occupier, by Indigenous people or by Europeans. The names and the intense focus is reserved for the lone, tiny, Jewish state.

RLB defended US police racism
by pretending they had been taught it by "others"

All else is navel gazing

The names and the intense focus is reserved for the lone, tiny, Jewish state

Do you think the term 'occupier' is used to describe the whole of Israel or for the when it is applied to the West Bank? Events which have happened in our lifetime and not centuries ago.

Oh - and it's also used for Tibet as well when China invaded and occupied it in 1959. And brought its people into the region.

I grew up being taught that two wrongs do not make a right.

I obviously don't know where you live, but I think its easy to judge others from a country where your citizenship is secure, and when most of the unpleasant and bloody business of defining borders was done by someone else long ago.

I don't think either Palestinians or Israelis feel they are in that position.
If the situation in the Middle East were straightforward, there wouldn't be a situation in the Middle East.

And I have long made in known that would never step foot in Australia because of its very recent history of racism and discrimination against Aborigines.

More recent than Windrush?

My limited Googling suggests that even the Israel High Court says that Israel occupies the West Bank.

"The International Court of Justice,[3] the UN General Assembly[4] and the United Nations Security Council regards Israel as the "Occupying Power".[5] UN Special Rapporteur Richard Falk called Israel's occupation "an affront to international law."[6] The Israeli High Court of Justice has ruled that Israel holds the West Bank under "belligerent occupation".[7]

According to Talia Sasson, the High Court of Justice in Israel, with a variety of different justices sitting, has repeatedly stated for more than four decades that international law applies to Israel's presence in the West Bank.[8] Israeli governments have preferred the term "disputed territories" in the case of the West Bank.[9][10]

Officially Israel maintains that the West Bank is disputed territory"

So many people regard the West Bank as Occupied Territory. And that International Laws about occupied territories and beligerant powers apply.

Just like China has done with Tibet.

But as I said upthread, it's complicated. Middle East geopolitics is.

As far as Australia, Canada etc - that was a long long time ago.

And I have long made in known that would never step foot in Australia because of its very recent history of racism and discrimination against Aborigines

History is just one long line of invasions and colonisations:

In ancient times, Palestine was intermittently controlled by several independent kingdoms and numerous great powers, including Ancient Egypt, Persia, Alexander the Great and his successors, the Roman Empire, several Muslim dynasties, and the Crusaders. In modern times, the area was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, then the United Kingdom. Since 1948, Palestine has been divided into Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Other terms for approximately the same geographic area include Canaan, Zion, the Land of Israel, Southern Syria, Outremer and the Holy Land: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Palestine

Jews have lived without time out in the land of Israel for millenium

Did anyone else live in that land at all? Or was it just Jewish people?
Where was that land? Its borders?
Who else lived in that land over the millenia?

It's very complicated. Lots of invasion, occupation, people over millenia from a range of backgrounds living there.

And then the Brits turned up and made things more complicated. In the whole of the Middle East.

@chomalungma

The names and the intense focus is reserved for the lone, tiny, Jewish state

Do you think the term 'occupier' is used to describe the whole of Israel or for the when it is applied to the West Bank? Events which have happened in our lifetime and not centuries ago.

Oh - and it's also used for Tibet as well when China invaded and occupied it in 1959. And brought its people into the region.

Jews did not 'invade' the land that is present-day Israel. They have lived there for at least two millenia. Have you heard of a book called 'the Bible'?

I've been over this with you. Other people have been over this with you. You have issues with the world's only Jewish state. It's obvious what your real problem is.

But Coyocan, as people keep pointing out here, Jews have lived without time out in the land of Israel for millenium

Of course they have and they lived in peace with their neighbours too. But then they didn't steal their neighbours' houses and land either. Palestinians are Christians, Jews and Muslims.

And having been part of the Ottoman empire is no reason for Palestinians to be left stateless.

The dreadful cruelties that were visited on the Jews happened in Europe, not the Middle East. Middle Eastern and North African countries protected the Jews during the second world war.

@chomalungma

Jews have lived without time out in the land of Israel for millenium

Did anyone else live in that land at all? Or was it just Jewish people?
Where was that land? Its borders?
Who else lived in that land over the millenia?

It's very complicated. Lots of invasion, occupation, people over millenia from a range of backgrounds living there.

And then the Brits turned up and made things more complicated. In the whole of the Middle East.

I explained to you that it's complicated.

You're repeating the word but you can't take it in.

The land wasn't Jewish, it wasn't 'Palestinian' because the Palestinians didn't exist. It didn't belong to anybody.

The problem with your Palestinian friends who vote for Hamas is that they don't want any Jews in the middle east. You won't have read the Hamas charter. It calls for the destruction of Israel and an Islamist caliphate. Guardian readers like yourself think you're being all woke and anti-colonialist but you're acting as the mouthpiece for an Islamist regime.

ews did not 'invade' the land that is present-day Israel. They have lived there for at least two millenia. Have you heard of a book called 'the Bible

Lots of people have lived in that land over millenia.

You have issues with the world's only Jewish state. It's obvious what your real problem is

The more you keep saying that, the more you dishonour the Jewish people who have suffered anti-semitism over the centuries, who died in the Holocaust and who suffer anti-semitism is

I know what anti-semitism is. There are Jewish people today who feel that Israel has invaded the West Bank and occupied it.

Are they anti-semites in your view?

@Coyoacan

But Coyocan, as people keep pointing out here, Jews have lived without time out in the land of Israel for millenium

Of course they have and they lived in peace with their neighbours too. But then they didn't steal their neighbours' houses and land either. Palestinians are Christians, Jews and Muslims.

And having been part of the Ottoman empire is no reason for Palestinians to be left stateless.

The dreadful cruelties that were visited on the Jews happened in Europe, not the Middle East. Middle Eastern and North African countries protected the Jews during the second world war.

Who 'stole' houses and land, please?

Israel was established by UN charter. To call this stealing can't be anything other than anti semitic.

The Palestinians would have had their own state long ago had they not rejected every offer that has been made to them. They wouldn't sign an agreement with Israel because they refuse to recognise the world's only Jewish state exists.

Middle eastern and north African countries protected the Jews, did they? Apart from the grand mufti of Jerusalem, who was a friend of Hitler. Do you have any clue at all?

Guardian readers like yourself think you're being all woke and anti-colonialist but you're acting as the mouthpiece for an Islamist regim

Just like Israelis who also have an issue with the Israeli Government's actions.

Are they mouthpieces too?

Israel was established by UN charter. To call this stealing can't be anything other than anti semitic

It was created by UN charter.

So why then do many International organisations, as well as the Israeli High Court, describe the West Bank as occupied territory?

How can a country occupy its own land?

How dim would anyone have to be not to see the flaw in this logic

I posted upthread the definition of anti-semitism.

There are many Israelis who have an issue with the Israeli Government's actions.

Please can you point out what I have said that is anti-semitic under that definition?

Just to remind you:

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

@chomalungma

Guardian readers like yourself think you're being all woke and anti-colonialist but you're acting as the mouthpiece for an Islamist regim

Just like Israelis who also have an issue with the Israeli Government's actions.

Are they mouthpieces too?

Another classic.

Do you see a difference between a black person using the n-word and a white person using it?

The racist will use the word and claim that it's ok. But they are wrong.

The racist will use the word and claim that it's ok. But they are wrong

Go on - look through those examples and point out any anti-semitism that I have done.