Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vice by Hannah Ewans, "Inside the Great British TERF War' (incl Hampstead Women's Pool, Manfriday, Mumsnet, The Guardian & a lot of false allegations)

86 replies

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 12:43

(Long read)

'Inside the Great British TERF War
This is how the debate over human rights for transgender people ended up dominating mainstream media, poisoning newsrooms and dividing British feminism.'

(extract)
The reforms suggested by LGBT charities like Stonewall were fairly minimal: the recognition of non-binary identities, no medical diagnosis or presentation of evidence needed and self-determination through a more streamlined process. The media commentary around the subject suggested otherwise. As Faye says: “Suddenly there was a deluge of anti-trans pieces every day. The Mail and the Sun were happy to join in there, but the Times – which is a paper of record – taking a committed level of anti-trans stance... That’s when I realised we were fucked in terms of the media.”

The final domino to fall was the Guardian. To many trans people and trans allies, the one progressive broadsheet in the UK posting its editorial view on trans rights in October 2018 was almost as striking a landmark moment as the overall response to the GRA. Rather than support the fairly minor reforms to the Gender Recognition Act, the Guardian highlighted the differing rights of trans people and women. It concluded with something no one on either side would disagree with: “Social media have unhelpfully amplified the voices at both extremes of this argument. The current divisions are troubling.” Trans activists and allies noted that the editorial was fence-sitting: it didn’t entirely invalidate trans rights, but it did dodge the issue.

Faye – along with other trans writers and readers – was shocked. “That editorial was a slap in the face and a watershed moment for me too, because I knew I couldn’t, in all conscience, work with the Guardian again. I’m self-aware enough to know that people would think I’m a bit of a sell-out, and fair enough. It’s grim to be taking payment from somewhere that the next day may be running something transphobic.”

The editorial stance didn’t come without warning. Concerns had been raised by trans people and allies over tweets and columns by prominent Guardian columnists and writers Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore. In a March 2018 Weekend column, Freeman argued against trans women using women’s facilities, implying that the dangers of a move towards self-identification was a danger to the safety of women. She notably calls Mumsnet “a pleasing hotbed of radical feminism” (elsewhere, Mumsnet has been accused of radicalising a whole generation of transphobes, with one Outline journalist writing: “Mumsnet is to British transphobia… what 4Chan is to American fascism”).

According to some Guardian UK staffers, who wished to remain anonymous for fear of repercussions, distress arose among younger members of staff and those supportive of trans rights. “The editorial was clearly trying to avoid alienating that portion of our readership – but in doing so it created a false equivalence between the two views, as if they were both equally valid,” says one staff member. “This was obviously disheartening for those who believe trans rights should be protected.” (continues)

The reality is that there are relatively few prominent cultural commentators on gender in the UK. But as Dr Sophie Lewis claims, when speaking to VICE, they present a united front. She says that they have risen through the ranks together and have longstanding relationships of some kind with each other. “It’s obviously easy to overstate this because there are structural factors I think as to why and ideological terrain to the way it is, but it’s also just because they’re all mates: Julie Bindel, Suzanne Moore, Julie Burchill. These are – in some cases erstwhile radical – highly educated journalistic privileged people. They’re defending each other and doubling down, partly because of the interpersonal ties and British class society’s particular texture amplifies the echo chamber element of it

Against the unmistakable flavour of a cohesive defence, the very few trans journalists have a narrative of their own. Like Jacques, both Faye and Lees are withdrawing from the media due to the toll it takes on their mental health. This means transgender people are going unheard in the mainstream media, and the debate continues to be had by white women centring their own experience as it purports to trans lives.

Faye has written a forthcoming political non-fiction book about the systemic transphobia in British society and says, quite sincerely, that the hardest chapter to write has been on feminism (“without wanting to sound too self-pitying, I’ve been targeted very badly in the name of feminism”). Lees hasn’t written for a newspaper for the past two years. She’s semi-retired from journalism and doesn’t consider herself an activist anymore.” (continues)

Some might remember this as a British story of furious debate and outright transphobia. But its key theme is an imbalance of power – one weighted against trans people and present within the internal and external make-up of the media and public life today. British trans people represent an estimated one percent of the population. One in four trans people has experienced homelessness and more than a quarter in a relationship in the past year have experienced domestic abuse. Their plight is firmly a class problem when one in three employers is “less likely” to hire a trans person, and in Ireland, half of trans people are unemployed.

Those who oppose their rights are frequently white, middle or upper middle-class people, or working-class people whose successful careers have afforded them a significant measure of social mobility. They have concerns over being silenced and yet hold large platforms with tens of thousands, even millions, of followers. They appear on Newsnight, radio shows or in reputable newspapers everyday." (continues)

concludes:
When the Men’s Pond protest happened, the small group was led by one woman – and founding member of the #ManFriday movement – Hannah Clarke. In the Daily Mail coverage of the small event, Clarke was quoted at length as being “articulate, measured in her language, and solidly middle-class”. Her father is a retired Army major, magistrate and Tory councillor; her mother has also been a Tory councillor in the Home Counties for almost three decades. Her husband worked in finance. She’s never protested before, she told the reporter, but finally she has a cause."

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/889qe5/trans-rights-uk-debate-terfs

Flowers for all the women maligned by this batshit article (especially the wonderful #ManFriday women)

OP posts:
SunsetBeetch · 16/06/2020 12:45

God Vice is a pile of shit these days.

(That's all I've got at the moment, will read the article properly later.)

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 12:54

will read the article properly later

Do make sure that you are not too close to electronic devices if reading the article whilst drinking coffee, gin, prosecco etc

OP posts:
severnboring · 16/06/2020 13:14

lol at the class/education stuff...
this is where Shon Faye went to school: www.qehbristol.co.uk/

severnboring · 16/06/2020 13:17

omg the illustration! the 'terf' has missing teeth and blood coming out of her mouth?!
and they've used a time machine to put a BLM demonstrator at Hampstead Ponds in 2018?

TheProdigalKittensReturn · 16/06/2020 13:33

Vice was founded by misogynists so no surprises there. Meanwhile, on the class issue, the only working class British TRA of note is Paris Lees, who's also been the only one not making a complete arse of themselves during the war on JK Rowling. I feel that this is unlikely to be a coincidence - Paris's background doesn't lend itself to the sense of invulnerability and entitlement that the rest of the TRAs have been showing.

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 16/06/2020 13:38

Sorry, what? They claim the GUARDIAN is against them?

My god, what sort of protective bubble do these twits live in if the most steadfastly woke, Owen Jones employing, daily TRA talking points publishing, right on paper is not on their side?

Shedbuilder · 16/06/2020 13:39

the Times – which is a paper of record – taking a committed level of anti-trans stance... That’s when I realised we were fucked in terms of the media.

Yup. The Times rumbled your house built on sand and said so. I never thought I'd say this but thank goodness for the Times and Janice Turner and the others on the Times team who took the issue up.

I just had a socially distanced conversation with a nice female neighbour who's taken out a £90 a year subscription to the Guardian and I just nodded and bit my tongue and managed not to scream 'You fool, you anti-women fool.'

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 13:39

omg the illustration! the 'terf' has missing teeth and blood coming out of her mouth?!
and they've used a time machine to put a BLM demonstrator at Hampstead Ponds in 2018?

Its an interesting characterisation of women seeking to safeguard a single sex space.
Hampstead Ponds had three pools, one female only, one male only & one mixed sex.

threads:

2017
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3126114-Hampstead-Heath-Womens-Pond

May 2018 ManFriday at the men's pond
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3261705-Turns-out-Hampstead-swimming-ponds-are-single-SEX-after-all

Edward Lord's (dodgy) City of London consultation:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3317922-City-of-London-Corporation-consultation-is-out-this-covers-Hampstead-Ponds

May 2019
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3592053-City-of-London-Consultation-Results-they-cant-get-away-with-this

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3593699-Hampstead-womens-pond-goes-trans

As Hannah Ewans is so keen to consider power & class dynamics, she really should have considered Freemason Edward Lord's role in removing female single sex spaces in the City of London.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3352843-First-there-was-Jess-Bradley-then-the-Challenors-now-Edward-Lord

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3610416-Private-Eye-article-on-Edward-Lord-and-CofL-consultation

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3323475-Surprise-The-Masons-now-welcome-Transwomen-but-not-women

Vice by Hannah Ewans, "Inside the Great British TERF War' (incl Hampstead Women's Pool, Manfriday, Mumsnet, The Guardian & a lot of false allegations)
Vice by Hannah Ewans, "Inside the Great British TERF War' (incl Hampstead Women's Pool, Manfriday, Mumsnet, The Guardian & a lot of false allegations)
OP posts:
picklemewalnuts · 16/06/2020 13:40

Polarising this on class or race grounds is laughable. They'd struggle to find a lot of support in underprivileged environments. Didn't a women's group in London complain that they were wrestling with real need and deprivation, while the focus for campaigning had been moved to trans issues? I can't remember enough detail to track that down.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 13:44

Yup. The Times rumbled your house built on sand and said so. I never thought I'd say this but thank goodness for the Times and Janice Turner and the others on the Times team who took the issue up.

December 2018 Edward Lord's letter demanding Sunday Times censorship of Andrew Gilligan:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3459026-Edward-Lord-asking-the-Sunday-Times-to-censor-Andrew-Gilligan

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 13:47

Didn't a women's group in London complain that they were wrestling with real need and deprivation, while the focus for campaigning had been moved to trans issues?

this is the statement that The Depford People Project made prior to The House of Commons 'We Need to Talk' meeting:
www.facebook.com/lubelluledotcom/posts/10156110925077980
(extract)
"Statement from Working class community workers from Deptford.
We are attending the women’s meeting at the House of Commons today. We would like to offer an explanation as to why this is necessary.

After many years of working at grass roots within our community we have recently been made aware of an issue that directly effects the working class and women in our area. The changes to the Gender Recognition Act will allow birth certificate changes without transition. We are an LGBTQ supporting group and we have concerns about how these changes will impact women only safe spaces.
We have never and will never support hate...

The majority of our recent projects have been working with rough sleepers, the homeless and those that have been excluded from society. The issues they face include: unsupported/ mental health illness, sexual violence and prostitution, childhood trauma and abuse, domestic violence, poverty, ex care system issues, addiction, prison, rehab, homelessness and austerity.
The people in our community that we represent are the most likely to access/ be placed in sex segregated services. Some have and will access all sex segregated services mentioned.

Our local political and community organisations have been infiltrated by a group of well meaning white middle class Goldsmiths (uni) students. These people although well intentioned have rail roaded many vital projects by introducing identity policies and intersectional thinking without truly understanding or experiencing working class issues.

Meetings we have attended for the purpose of discussing community housing projects and women’s wellness etc have been used as a platform to re educate working class people on the new academic language expected within our organisations.
As anyone from a working class back ground will tell you, these theories and ideologies rarely translate into working class communities.

The extremely small number of transsexual (I use the old term as this has a very different meaning to the university umbrella term currently thrown about) member of the community are and have always been accepted and protected.
However we have now been informed that transgender people are being routinely abused (mis gendered) and should be protected above all other marginalised groups. We can see that all that has actually changed is privileged mainly white students have adopted a set of gender identities that allow them to be considered marginalised. The people we encountered were far from marginalised. In fact they were highly educated, openly classist and aggressive.

This new politics doesn’t equate in our community or for the people we support. We are dealing with working class issues with severely marginalised people and the trans lobby is a gentrification of working class social and political movements. Note the difference between trans lobby and trans people.

No one will discuss our concerns regarding self identification. Our local Labour Party has refused to comment or debate with the working class community. We are attending the meeting this evening as this is only place that is willing to discuss theses issues.
When we are being verbally abused and called fascists and phobic because we are concerned about the effects of policy change on marginalised people it is a direct attack on working class women and grass roots organisations.

So please when you share information about this eventand attempt to shut it down be aware that you are complicit in the silencing of not only women but working class people who have not afforded the privileged of a safe space or university education."

OP posts:
Collidascope · 16/06/2020 13:50

Interesting they think this is a white feminist issue, as I've seen plenty of BAME women speak out on it. I guess the TRAs either don't listen to them, or are being disingenuous about it just being white feminists.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 13:53

Short version

Opinions I disagree with are sometimes covered in the media. This makes me sad.

Some female journalists have opinions I don't like. I am annoyed anyone publishes them. People should not listen to the opinions of successful educated women, especially if they are white.

I so very wish people would stop writing articles giving credence to opinions contrary to mine. More and more people are agreeing with those wrong opinions. As a result people who agree with me have decided the best thing to do is stop writing.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 13:55

Interesting they think this is a white feminist issue, as I've seen plenty of BAME women speak out on it. I guess the TRAs either don't listen to them, or are being disingenuous about it just being white feminists.

Collidascope Its frequently young white female writers influenced by older white male TRAs who take this position.

OP posts:
stumbledin · 16/06/2020 14:02

Sorry I am not quite sure that this isn't just part of the any number of articles that are being printed that have no basis in fact ie trans rights vs. women's rights goes back to the 70s!!

And who in their right mind would turn to Vice to get real information. This is just the trans bubble confirming that the trans bubble is the universal view.

After the Sunday Times leak (of in fact old information) I was going to suggest a thread where we all contributed articles that the media (new and old) would publish is response to illustrate how 99 times out of 100 articles would be against Rowlings, women and feminists.

But in the first day I got so many it just seemed self defeating.

What would be great would be to have some sort of listening device in the Stonewall offices (or zoom meeting) to hear how and who they are lobbying in Parliament to stop (assuming its correct) the Government response to the results of the GRA consultation.

And know that women's groups, and single sex service providers will not have anything like the list of names of MPs they can contact.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 14:03

When the Men’s Pond protest happened, the small group was led by one woman – and founding member of the #ManFriday movement – Hannah Clarke. In the Daily Mail coverage of the small event, Clarke was quoted at length as being “articulate, measured in her language, and solidly middle-class”

Jane Fae has long expressed resentment towards the women behind #ManFriday.

September 2018 Fae organised a TRA conference, 'We're Still Here'. Dawn Butler MP (former shadow Minister for Women & Equalities) gave the keynote speech.

TheHarpySings reported from the event:
(extract)

"4) Equalities Act

So… there was a kind of informal meeting during lunchtime about The Equalities Act which was being run by everyone’s favourite advocate for extreme porn, Jane Fae. Edward Lord turned up, straight from a meeting with the City of London Corp. PlEASE NOTE THAT FAE AND LORD DID NOT WANT THIS SECTION TWEETED.

Edward Lord. He was dressed like Tweedledum. Or, if I’m feeling generous, a Mario Brother that doesn’t get invited to Xmas dinner anymore.

Mr Lord was very bumfaced about the Andrew Gilligan article about him in July and said that opposition to the GRA consultation just wanted to “cause mayhem.” He directly mentioned the Man Friday Hampstead Pond stuff.

Apparently “there have been no incidents of men turning up to the women’s pond but Man Friday turned up to the men’s pond and demanded admission- by force if necessary.”

As of 8/9/18, 15.5k people had completed the attitudes survey.

Lord said that TW were entitled to the protected characteristic “Woman”- he said the Gov dept on woman and equalities has confirmed this. Apparently the brave and stunning vexatious litigator Giuliana Kendall has something to do with this being confirmed.

Edward Lord is worried about the 125 elected members of the London assembly or whatever the fuck Londoners have governing the city. Not all of them are onside. He is worried that all of this is going to be discussed at committee and that “terfs are going to protest”.

Jane Fae said that JF has been in contact w/ YHA and GirlGuiding. Fae is of the opinion that the law doesn’t distinguish gender and sex. They are not defined and parliament will not define them.

The TRAs are fully prepared to take local councils to court of they try to invoke EA2010 for reasons of sex. JF was nodding at Giuliana when JF said this.

James Morton (Scottish Trans Alliance) said to be “strategic about test cases to ensure strong case law”.

Edward Lord agreed. He also said that the City of London Corp city solicitor and the Chief Exec are “strong allies”.

Regards the consultation doc put out by the City of London Corp… Lord implied that they were going to go through the answers and cherry pick the the qualitative snapshots.

One of the Mermaids mums in attendance said the “banner of concerned mothers of vulnerable children shouldn’t be captured by bigots”. Lord is meeting officers about how data is presented and is “conscious of that line of argument”

Jane Fae said the GC side are spreading a myth of predatory males- which doesn’t happen (!!! Lolz Karen White). And also spreading the myth that that TW are paedophiles (Loz Karen White x2).

Then (and Fae didn’t want this tweeted) apparently, there ARE terrible people exploiting The Equalities Act. And they are…

Man Friday
We Need To Talk
Fair Play for Women

According to Fae, all of the above have broken laws and engaged in upskirting and crotch shots of TW. Fae talked about debating Amy Desir of Man Friday about refuges. Amy talked about how female socialisation essentially stops us from refusing TW in our spaces.

JF then asked people not to tweet this next bit because it is libellous: Amy Desir took her husband into the Next changing rooms to commit voyeurism.
Fae (shouting): “Who is the pervert now?!!”

JF hopes that Amy and Man Friday are prosecuted." (continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

OP posts:
Collidascope · 16/06/2020 14:04

@R0wantrees

Interesting they think this is a white feminist issue, as I've seen plenty of BAME women speak out on it. I guess the TRAs either don't listen to them, or are being disingenuous about it just being white feminists.

Collidascope Its frequently young white female writers influenced by older white male TRAs who take this position.

I know. I'm never quite sure how they square it in their heads to shame women for being white and middle class whilst themselves being white and middle class.
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 14:09

I know. I'm never quite sure how they square it in their heads to shame women for being white and middle class whilst themselves being white and middle class.

I think ageism plays a role.
The interesting dynamic is the older white middle class male TRA denying 'privilege'.

OP posts:
TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 14:16

A very long dull article.

trans people were being seen and heard by British public. But the debate has remained the same: are trans people who they say they are?

Even a global pandemic has not slowed the decades-old debate on whether trans women are women.

“Male violence is an issue for women, which is why we want single-sex spaces,” Moore writes. Where, commentators asked, does that leave trans women, to whom the patriarchy proves an even greater risk?

At least the author shows a glimmer of realising what is at the heart of the debate. People don't just go along with you saying biological isn't real or important just because you say it with passion repeatedly. Also, transwomen expect women to be their support humans and can't understand how women's refusal can be anything other than hate.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 14:17

Biological sex obviously

severnboring · 16/06/2020 14:18

Thank you R0wantrees!

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 14:19

As well as Man Friday, Jane Fae has also had a focus on access to women's swimming space for some time.

'Transgender women are women,' organizers say after controversy over women-only pond in London'

The World
September 25, 2018
By Allison Herrera

(extract)
"Jane Faye was early in her transition from male to female when she was accosted before entering the women's changing area. It was a Saturday morning, and she was getting ready to step into the pool with her then 5-year-old son. A man appeared out of nowhere and threatened her.

“This man just hogged the way. And said, 'You're not going in there.' And I said, "Why not?" And he just said, 'Well, I'm going to hit you if you do,'” said Faye, who lives north of London.

It was a terrifying moment. "And I think [among] the various lessons I learned very early on in transition is that men were dangerous.”

So, when Faye first heard about the Hampstead Heath Ladies' Pond, a women-only swimming pond in the middle of London, she assumed it was a safe space for all women, including transgender women like herself. “The general feeling is that at present, at least in this country, trans people have rights,” she said.

Whether it's about changing rooms or bathrooms (remember the infamous "bathroom bill" controversy in North Carolina?), trans people here and abroad are becoming more vocal about their rights. And this means being accepted for their gender identity — not the sex they were identified with at birth. And for trans women, that also includes being able to take a dip in a pond that's been a women-only space for the last 100 years. " (continues)

www.pri.org/stories/2018-09-25/transgender-women-are-women-organizers-say-after-controversy-over-women-only-pond

threads
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3710570-Astonishing-thread-from-Jane-Fae-Darvo-at-its-finest

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3869907-Jane-Fae-The-coronavirus-death-rate-for-men-is-high-possibly-because-women-are-not-pulling-their-weight-in-the-crisis

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3374614-John-Ozimek-now-Jane-Fae-on-women-feminists-and-victims-of-pornographers

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3929126-Jane-Fae-is-fleeing-the-UK-shock

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3205176-dv-gone-wrong

OP posts:
Al1Langdownthecleghole · 16/06/2020 14:36

Deary me.

You come to Mumsnet as a mild-mannered, boring, short, fat, middle-aged working mother of three, a PTA member, cub-leader and carer for older relatives, out of date in your three quarter length chinos and fit-flops.

And you emerge from the radicalisation portal as a full-on black-shirted transphobic nazi? Nah.

I'm off to join the para-letter writing wing.

picklemewalnuts · 16/06/2020 14:36

Thank you Rowan, that was exact the statement I meant.

Datun · 16/06/2020 15:05

I'm struck by the lofty (and singular) remark about the 'fairly minimal' tweaks they want made to the GRA - whilst simultaneously pinning their lives, mental health and very existence of all trans people on them.

Faye has written a forthcoming political non-fiction book about the systemic transphobia in British society and says, quite sincerely, that the hardest chapter to write has been on feminism

Seriously, they should come clean that Titania McGrath has ghostwritten it.