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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Vice by Hannah Ewans, "Inside the Great British TERF War' (incl Hampstead Women's Pool, Manfriday, Mumsnet, The Guardian & a lot of false allegations)

86 replies

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 12:43

(Long read)

'Inside the Great British TERF War
This is how the debate over human rights for transgender people ended up dominating mainstream media, poisoning newsrooms and dividing British feminism.'

(extract)
The reforms suggested by LGBT charities like Stonewall were fairly minimal: the recognition of non-binary identities, no medical diagnosis or presentation of evidence needed and self-determination through a more streamlined process. The media commentary around the subject suggested otherwise. As Faye says: “Suddenly there was a deluge of anti-trans pieces every day. The Mail and the Sun were happy to join in there, but the Times – which is a paper of record – taking a committed level of anti-trans stance... That’s when I realised we were fucked in terms of the media.”

The final domino to fall was the Guardian. To many trans people and trans allies, the one progressive broadsheet in the UK posting its editorial view on trans rights in October 2018 was almost as striking a landmark moment as the overall response to the GRA. Rather than support the fairly minor reforms to the Gender Recognition Act, the Guardian highlighted the differing rights of trans people and women. It concluded with something no one on either side would disagree with: “Social media have unhelpfully amplified the voices at both extremes of this argument. The current divisions are troubling.” Trans activists and allies noted that the editorial was fence-sitting: it didn’t entirely invalidate trans rights, but it did dodge the issue.

Faye – along with other trans writers and readers – was shocked. “That editorial was a slap in the face and a watershed moment for me too, because I knew I couldn’t, in all conscience, work with the Guardian again. I’m self-aware enough to know that people would think I’m a bit of a sell-out, and fair enough. It’s grim to be taking payment from somewhere that the next day may be running something transphobic.”

The editorial stance didn’t come without warning. Concerns had been raised by trans people and allies over tweets and columns by prominent Guardian columnists and writers Hadley Freeman and Suzanne Moore. In a March 2018 Weekend column, Freeman argued against trans women using women’s facilities, implying that the dangers of a move towards self-identification was a danger to the safety of women. She notably calls Mumsnet “a pleasing hotbed of radical feminism” (elsewhere, Mumsnet has been accused of radicalising a whole generation of transphobes, with one Outline journalist writing: “Mumsnet is to British transphobia… what 4Chan is to American fascism”).

According to some Guardian UK staffers, who wished to remain anonymous for fear of repercussions, distress arose among younger members of staff and those supportive of trans rights. “The editorial was clearly trying to avoid alienating that portion of our readership – but in doing so it created a false equivalence between the two views, as if they were both equally valid,” says one staff member. “This was obviously disheartening for those who believe trans rights should be protected.” (continues)

The reality is that there are relatively few prominent cultural commentators on gender in the UK. But as Dr Sophie Lewis claims, when speaking to VICE, they present a united front. She says that they have risen through the ranks together and have longstanding relationships of some kind with each other. “It’s obviously easy to overstate this because there are structural factors I think as to why and ideological terrain to the way it is, but it’s also just because they’re all mates: Julie Bindel, Suzanne Moore, Julie Burchill. These are – in some cases erstwhile radical – highly educated journalistic privileged people. They’re defending each other and doubling down, partly because of the interpersonal ties and British class society’s particular texture amplifies the echo chamber element of it

Against the unmistakable flavour of a cohesive defence, the very few trans journalists have a narrative of their own. Like Jacques, both Faye and Lees are withdrawing from the media due to the toll it takes on their mental health. This means transgender people are going unheard in the mainstream media, and the debate continues to be had by white women centring their own experience as it purports to trans lives.

Faye has written a forthcoming political non-fiction book about the systemic transphobia in British society and says, quite sincerely, that the hardest chapter to write has been on feminism (“without wanting to sound too self-pitying, I’ve been targeted very badly in the name of feminism”). Lees hasn’t written for a newspaper for the past two years. She’s semi-retired from journalism and doesn’t consider herself an activist anymore.” (continues)

Some might remember this as a British story of furious debate and outright transphobia. But its key theme is an imbalance of power – one weighted against trans people and present within the internal and external make-up of the media and public life today. British trans people represent an estimated one percent of the population. One in four trans people has experienced homelessness and more than a quarter in a relationship in the past year have experienced domestic abuse. Their plight is firmly a class problem when one in three employers is “less likely” to hire a trans person, and in Ireland, half of trans people are unemployed.

Those who oppose their rights are frequently white, middle or upper middle-class people, or working-class people whose successful careers have afforded them a significant measure of social mobility. They have concerns over being silenced and yet hold large platforms with tens of thousands, even millions, of followers. They appear on Newsnight, radio shows or in reputable newspapers everyday." (continues)

concludes:
When the Men’s Pond protest happened, the small group was led by one woman – and founding member of the #ManFriday movement – Hannah Clarke. In the Daily Mail coverage of the small event, Clarke was quoted at length as being “articulate, measured in her language, and solidly middle-class”. Her father is a retired Army major, magistrate and Tory councillor; her mother has also been a Tory councillor in the Home Counties for almost three decades. Her husband worked in finance. She’s never protested before, she told the reporter, but finally she has a cause."

www.vice.com/en_uk/article/889qe5/trans-rights-uk-debate-terfs

Flowers for all the women maligned by this batshit article (especially the wonderful #ManFriday women)

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 15:09

I wonder how much 'research' Fae provided for Hannah Ewans to construct this article.

OP posts:
DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 16/06/2020 15:19

Interesting they think this is a white feminist issue, as I've seen plenty of BAME women speak out on it. I guess the TRAs either don't listen to them, or are being disingenuous about it just being white feminists.

I directed one of our visitors towards Lipstick Alley (‘The Internet's largest African American Forum. News, Sports, Celebrity Gossip, Fashion and Hair Care from an African American perspective’) last night, where they had a parallel thread to ours about yesterday’s Ask Daniel Radcliffe Twitter Hashtag.

www.lipstickalley.com/threads/yall-come-see-this-askdanielradcliffe-is-trending-in-the-uk-on-twitter.3616332/

Our visitor came back a while later still spouting absolutely incoherent nonsense about JK Rowling, refusing to acknowledge that black women don’t want male people in female single sex spaces any more than white women do, so I’m voting ‘disingenuous’.

Blackdoggotmytonguestill · 16/06/2020 15:25

Jane ‘here’s how to clean your hard drive when the cops are coming’ Fae? Pathetic little porn-addled weasel.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 15:28

A glance at twitter seems to suggest that that most of the "cis" tra are white and middle class with jobs that would have got them a seat on Golgafrincham Ark Fleet Ship B.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/06/2020 15:46

transwomen expect women to be their support humans and can't understand how women's refusal can be anything other than hate.

In a nutshell.

The support humans just keep on malfunctioning.

Datun · 16/06/2020 15:47

I thought it was Shon 'women enjoy your erasure/suck dick, get tits early advice to youngsters' Faye?

The one claiming to have a spot of bother writing about feminism.

Michelleoftheresistance · 16/06/2020 15:50

And let's be honest about this: the massive majority of those with power and voice in this situation are straight, white, male, able bodied, affluent, educated and middle class. The Deptford letter is still a heartrending read even a couple of years on, they really nailed it.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 16/06/2020 16:17

Yes. The pro extreme violent porn Fae self identifies AS a feminist, so it must be the Faye who once billed Fayeself as a ‘man in make up’.

This one: www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/fashion/2014/dec/06/my-life-in-makeup

(I noticed the Guardian has replaced the original photos!)

NeurotrashWarrior · 16/06/2020 16:25

Faye – along with other trans writers and readers – was shocked.

Shocked? Someone who has written and campaigned for violent porn shocked?

Pull the other one.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 16:38

Hannah Clarke. In the Daily Mail coverage of the small event, Clarke was quoted at length as being “articulate, measured in her language

This part of the article is accurate.

9 Jun 2018 Hannah Clarke's speech at LAWS Truro on becoming an "accidental activist", why all the ManFriday are "equally brave & deserving of recognition" & suggestions how to support this "war on women":

(from 33:00)

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 16:40

apologies, that should read why all the ManFriday women are "equally brave & deserving of recognition"

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TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 17:26

I expect the women in Faye's porn tend to be either (a) successfully and easily dominated, or
(b) fully dominant from the start.

I don't think they tend to feature:

(c) man wants to dominate, woman says no and goes away, leaving man frustrated.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/06/2020 17:48

Dreadful article. I saw a tweet from Julie Bindel earlier where she was spitting tacks about being described as privileged. She pointed out that she, Suzanne Moore and Julie Burchill were all unusual in having achieved success in journalism after coming from working-class families and going to the local state comprehensive school.

To supplement the Deptford Project statement R0wan linked to earlier, here's the Feminist Current article Meghan Murphy wrote about the left wing in the UK and GC issues, which includes a long section talking about the Deptford Project and the damaging effect of the woke youth of Goldsmith's. www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

donquixotedelamancha · 16/06/2020 17:59

Those who oppose their rights are frequently white, middle or upper middle-class people, or working-class people whose successful careers have afforded them a significant measure of social mobility.

Surely that describes any campaigning organisation in the UK? I think the public faces of the anti-self-ID cause are more working class than any UK equivalent I can think of. There is certainly no similar group which has so dominated by women, especially lesbians. And this idea that 'terfs are white' is just laughable.

bishopgiggles · 16/06/2020 18:08

Haven't read the full article but banging on about 3 feminists being white does lead me to ask whether Jaques, Faye or Lees are identifying as non-white now? Have I missed something? Or is it the way the excerpt reads due to editing?

WeeBisom · 16/06/2020 18:16

I burst out laughing at the comparison of mumsnet to 4chan! The class analysis in this is really off putting. I’m from a working class background and loads of my working class friends are gender critical- it doesn’t ring true that this is a middle class movement. The writer says that bindel, Burchill, and Moore are middle class - but I just checked their wikis and they all grew up in working class families and went to comprehensive schools. Bindel didn’t even have an indoor toilet for gods sake. How can they just outright tell lies about people’s backgrounds and class like this?

bishopgiggles · 16/06/2020 18:24

That Deptford group statement needs more attention imo. It says a lot.

YgritteSnow · 16/06/2020 18:24

Lees keeps a low profile these days because I think they're actually quite intelligent and saw exactly how this was going even a few years ago. That's my opinion anyway. They and certain others were very forceful when things were going their way but they see it has been overtaken by clueless youngsters who use vile, aggressive and demeaning language towards actual women and they don't want to be associated with that but they can't actually come out and say it so they're keeping quiet and watching it play out.

DuDuDuLangaLangaBingBong · 16/06/2020 18:26

I don’t think the person who wrote the bit about parks...

“The fetishisation of landscaped parks created by the aristocracy and maintained by Britain’s colonial expropriated wealth, without any consideration of the history of its making,” Mayer writes on email, “colludes in creating implicit exclusions.” In other words: even the bucolic spaces that anti-trans feminists wish to protect have class and segregation baked into their DNA.’

.... has actually ever been to say, Victoria Park in Hackney on a Sunday afternoon (nor spoken to a working class Londoner 😂)

SeasonallySnowyPeasant · 16/06/2020 18:31

Ah, Vice, that bastion of well-informed journalism. I jest.

I didn’t reach the end of that very long piece of drivel but the cartoon somehow implying that ManFriday were racist is disgraceful.

donquixotedelamancha · 16/06/2020 18:36

Lees keeps a low profile these days because I think they're actually quite intelligent and saw exactly how this was going even a few years ago. That's my opinion anyway.

I agree, Lees is clever and articulate. Most of her contributions I've seen in recent years have been asking some of the silliest TRAs to shush.

We are bloody lucky that the other side is generally represented by the Amy Chalenors of the world. If every TRA was like Lees we would not have been so successful.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 18:41

Lees keeps a low profile these days because I think they're actually quite intelligent and saw exactly how this was going even a few years ago. That's my opinion anyway.

Lees has been campaigning for a long time.

2015 Guardian event hosted by Paris Lees with Peter Tatchell, Owen Jones, Munroe Bergdorf, Jake Graf & Kate Stone.

The focus is on how allies can help transpeople remove barriers.

'Being transgender and happy'

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 18:43

The event also features questions by Freddie McConnell of The Guardian.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 18:48

That Deptford group statement needs more attention imo. It says a lot.

This ^^

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Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 16/06/2020 18:53

I've just exercised my journalistic skills too and looked at the Wikipedia articles on Moore, Burchill and Bindel. Not only are their backgrounds clear, but not one of them is a graduate. How does that square with Hannah Ewens quoting without correction Dr Sophie Lewis's description of them as '– in some cases erstwhile radical – highly educated journalistic privileged people'. Self-educated, highly intellingent, widely read, undoubtedly. Not highly educated in the way that Hannah Ewens herself is - degree in Eng Lit form KCL, Master's in Journalism from City University.