Woman's Hour - 16 June - scrapping the proposed GRA amendments

[nauticant]

Just announced that this will be a topic for discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting whether, following a shift in people being more allowed to discuss this, and it being clear how this triggers violent misogyny, whether WH will realise that giving a fair hearing to the gender critical view is essential.

I think it's worth pointing out to Woman's Hour that Garvey's neutrality is being impacted by fear of being targeted and 'cancelled' by extremists. That's pretty bloody serious.

Can fear of targeting, and 'cancelling' and abuse and losing your income be equated to fear of openly discussing your much revered views with someone who does not agree with you?

Trans rights activists are in trouble now, the tables have been turned, they are now in a position where they will have to campaign to change the government's position. I am sure they will play the martyr to perfection but they have been stuck in #nodebate mode for so long it will be hard for them to get out. Women's groups had brilliant journalists shredding ministers like Maria Miller, TRAs have Owen Jones posting self righteous angry tweets. They will get nowhere unless they can take their campaign outside the twitterverse.

Let's not forget that Belcher alleged that Janice Turner was responsible for a wave of teenage trans suicides. Turner replied in a column and Belcher complained to IPSO. IPSO found that there was no substance to any of the allegations.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1121392130021363713.html

Belcher is very keen on silencing women that dissent so I'm not surprised that Garvey was playing it safe. I'm disappointed that they invited Belcher on at all though.

I’m always disappointed in interviews when the toilet issue is raised. It’s policed as it is at the moment, via common decency.
I don’t enter men’s toilets because it’s entering men’s spaces and I therefore realise I shouldn’t be there. Likewise my husband doesn’t enter the women loos for the same reasons.
The only people to ever break that common courtesy usually have an ulterior motive in my experience.

It is worth being aware of the background to why Jenni Murray does not do Woman's Hour interviews about sex & gender.

Sunday Times
March 5th 2017

Jenni Murray: Be trans, be proud — but don’t call yourself a “real woman”
Can someone who has lived as a man, with all the privilege that entails, really lay claim to womanhood? It takes more than a sex change and make-up

(extract)
Let me make something absolutely clear at the outset. I am not transphobic or anti-trans. Not a Terf in other words. That’s trans-exclusionary radical feminist, to use one of the often-confusing expressions that have entered the language in this age of gender revolution.

I’ll admit to feminist, but radical or separatist? No, on account of spending the past 37 years of my life as a woman married to a man and, together, raising two fine sons. I make my position plain because I know that in writing this article I am entering into the most controversial and, at times, vicious, vulgar and threatening debate of our day. I’m diving headfirst into deep and dangerous waters. I’ve no difficulty with men doing whatever they choose to express their feminine side. Indeed I welcome it. " (continues)

The fury that a male-to-female transsexual could be so ignorant of the politics that have preoccupied women for centuries hit me again last year — 16 years after I had met Carol. This time I was speaking to another trans woman, India Willoughby, who had hit the headlines after appearing on the ITV programme Loose Women.

India held firmly to her belief that she was a “real woman”, ignoring the fact that she had spent all of her life before her transition enjoying the privileged position in our society generally accorded to a man. In a discussion about the Dorchester hotel’s demands that its female staff should always wear make-up, have a manicure and wear stockings over shaved legs, she was perfectly happy to go along with such requirements. There wasn’t a hint of understanding that she was simply playing into the stereotype — a man’s idea of what a woman should be.

She described hairy legs on a woman as “dirty”. But hairy legs are not considered dirty in a man. Did she not know that the question of whether a woman should shave her legs or her a rmpits had been a topic of debate among women for an awfully long time? And that to describe a woman who chose not to shave as dirty was insulting and again suggested an ignorance of sexual politics?

Unsurprisingly, my polite and informed line of questioning exposed me to a barrage of criticism on social media. I was a Terf and didn’t understand what Simone de Beauvoir, the author of one of the great feminist tracts, The Second Sex, meant when she wrote: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”

As a matter of fact, I have understood perfectly what de Beauvoir meant ever since I read her as a teenage girl. Her subject was that “second sex”. She used the word sex advisedly.

Your sex, male or female, is what you’re born with and determines whether you’ll provide the sperm or the eggs in the reproductive process. What de Beauvoir was analysing was gendered socialisation" (contines)

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/be-trans-be-proud-but-dont-call-yourself-a-real-woman-frtld7q5c

Jenni Murray was publically censured by the BBC for this article & has since been 'no-platformed' from speaking engagements to discuss her book, 'A HIstory of Britain in 21 Women'

Yesterday on 'Good Morning Britain' Willoughby alleged that J K Rowling was indeed transphobic & attributed this to having being radicalised by 'terfs' who had 'colonised' a prominent parenting website. Willoughby's evidence for this was J K Rowling's reference to clownfish in her statement on why she had chosen to speak out sex & gender issues.

www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

Belcher is very keen on silencing women that dissent so I'm not surprised that Garvey was playing it safe. I'm disappointed that they invited Belcher on at all though.

Belcher has also played a key role in misrepresenting the spousal exit clause in the GRA as a 'veto' .

threads:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3717872-Trans-Widows-the-Liberal-Democrats-and-the-Spousal-Veto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3792495-spousal-veto

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3820266-Lord-Keen-disputing-the-language-of-the-spousal-veto

@Deltoids1

I’m always disappointed in interviews when the toilet issue is raised. It’s policed as it is at the moment, via common decency. I don’t enter men’s toilets because it’s entering men’s spaces and I therefore realise I shouldn’t be there. Likewise my husband doesn’t enter the women loos for the same reasons. The only people to ever break that common courtesy usually have an ulterior motive in my experience.

Exactly.

Which is why the "How are you going to police it" is so wrong, because policing it was never an issue. Instead that is a statement of "How are you going to stop me".

Let's not forget that Belcher alleged that Janice Turner was responsible for a wave of teenage trans suicides. Turner replied in a column and Belcher complained to IPSO. IPSO found that there was no substance to any of the allegations.

May 2018 Helen Belcher was also involved (through Trans Media Watch) in the reporting of Mumsnet & its members to the Home Affairs Committee on Hate Crime for transphobia.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3238618-Trans-Media-Watch-has-written-to-parliament-saying-trans-identified-male-can-be-considered-as-hate-speech-and-that-Mumsnet-users-referring-to-penises-are-being-transphobic

I wish they would let Jenni Murray back in and let her go at it. She has already been cancelled for wrong think.

Now the BBC allows some debate and the tide is turning it could be part of the inevitable rehabilitation exercise.

@zanahoria

Trans rights activists are in trouble now, the tables have been turned, they are now in a position where they will have to campaign to change the government's position. I am sure they will play the martyr to perfection but they have been stuck in #nodebate mode for so long it will be hard for them to get out. Women's groups had brilliant journalists shredding ministers like Maria Miller, TRAs have Owen Jones posting self righteous angry tweets. They will get nowhere unless they can take their campaign outside the twitterverse.

It certainly does seem like 'No Debate' as a tactic (or was it the strategy?) is finished.

What's left for the TRAs is either trying to rather blatantly intimidate and threaten women like Liz Truss and JK Rowling, or debating openly and fully and bit-by-bit revealing their position(s) as MRAs.

I would like to see Woman's Hour do a piece along the lines of why do we have sex segregated spaces at all, which are universal and which are in some countries only. Not about trans at all - not a trans topic.

It is really worth emailing Woman's Hour with thoughts & suggestions.
The editorial team should be made aware of their audience's opinions.

@TorkTorkBam

I would like to see Woman's Hour do a piece along the lines of why do we have sex segregated spaces at all, which are universal and which are in some countries only. Not about trans at all - not a trans topic.

Which, of course would immediately be jumped on for being transphobic for NOT mentioning (centring) trans.

To Helen - What do you think about those who disgree with you?

To Joan - Don't you think the government has better things to do?
Don't you feel awful for poor Helen who wants to run away?

I wasn't very impressed.

Belcher lives in Wiltshire which I've seen reported as having the UKs best standard of living on measures such as poverty, social mobility etc. Poor poor thing having to live there and be selected as a political party candidate and running a successful business. Terrible experiences all round for Belcher.

FFS

To be fair on Jane Garvey, she did very well interviewing Sally Hines a while ago.

Just listened to the podcast when emails were read out. I have no idea if they represented the full . Seemed like the producers had put the pro trans to the top for Jane to read as they were predominantly from mother’s of trans people proclaiming how lovely they are are and nobody needs to have any concerns. At the end the thing about having to share a cell in prison was clarified. Not if you are on remand apparently so yes women prisoners can be expected to share a cell with men. And that was it..

Seemed like the producers had put the pro trans to the top for Jane to read as they were predominantly from mother’s of trans people proclaiming how lovely they are are and nobody needs to have any concerns

That will have been mermaids rallying the troops then. Probably well primed by Trans Media Watch.

DH turned it off after the introduction, mentioning JKR, said books were selling 'despite' the controversy pissed him off, thus missing a treat with Helen.

WH are just so consistently disappointing on this. It's all lowest common denominator, minimum requirement, box ticking, lip service stuff that doesn't leave anyone feeling any more well informed than they were before.

In itself that's woefully indicative of the situation. Woman's Hour - the programme whose chief remit is to look at subjects through a female lens - aren't able to do that with this subject, and aren't brave enough to admit it.

I've just emailed them here

[email protected]

I agree about the disappointment factor. So many times I've felt excited when it's announced that WH is going to have a debate/ tackle this issue. Some of the discussions they've conducted have been totally incomprehensible and shed no light at all on what's been going on.

September 2018 Jane Fae organised a TRA conference, 'We're Still Here'. Dawn Butler MP (former shadow minister Women & Equalities)

TheHarpySings reported

(extract)
6) GETTING THE GRA WE WANT

This was a workshop with 3 experts sitting with groups and talking through activism. They were:

Helen Belcher (Lib Dems, Trans Media Watch)
James Morton (Scottish Transgender Alliance)
Alex Moore (GenderJam). Moore is from N Ireland.

James Morton gave some insight into tactics the TRAs will probably start using in England and Wales as they were successful in Scotland.

He said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them.

He also said what worked in Scotland's was a “constructive, friendly, innocent” tone when debating or in dialogue with the GC side. To be mindful about who is watching- essentially like what we do with the lurkers on the FWR board. To make the TRAs look like the reasonable side.

James also said that in dialect with elected officials, to clarify that the trans side aren’t silencing anyone but want to clarify the misconceptions being bandied around by GC feminists.

The Scottish GRA changes will probably be put forward in the 2019-2020 parliamentary year.

Belcher has been meeting with MPs and members of the House of Lords. Most of them don’t really understand the GRA and don’t have much time to think about it thanks to the Brexit FUBAR. “Education” of law makers is needed and that’s what Belcher is doing.

Apparently the TRAs lack the infrastructure they had in the 1990s and early 2000s so they need to think carefully and coordinate.

Belcher said to re-iterate to MPs that the EA2010 is not being affected and no one is losing any rights (wtf).

Apparently in terms of political support, the Tories are split about 50/50, Labour, Lib Dem's and SNP are all onside. The Greens were NOT mentioned.

The big fear on the TRA side is that this Government won’t survive long enough to get this through- again because Brexit.

According to Alex Moore, Arlene Foster of the DUP went to a Pink News event and didn’t seem to know much about this. In NI no one really cares about the trans issues because everyone is focused on same sex marriage and abortion.

Alex then moaned about the Together for Yes campaign’s transmisogyny and that the campaign completely erased the experiences of trans and NB people who need abortions. Alex would like a legal change of gender to be free of charge and as easy as changing your name.

Helen Belcher was annoyed at GC feminists using “emotive arguments” regards rape.

HB said that the pile ons pro self-ID MPs get from the GC side if they say something supportive of the trans side are not helping the GC cause. Maria Miller told Belcher that MPs got loads of abuse in the run up to marriage equality and that abusive messages, tweets from GC feminists will only harden MPs against the GC side.

HB also said something snide about “mouthy” female Labour MPs who speak before thinking on Twitter- especially on a Friday or Saturday night after they’ve had a few drinks.

Apparently the TRAs have civil service support and that the Stonewall report and Gov survey are strong bits of evidence they have which is helping them win arguments.

They are saying there is no risk to reforming the GRA and are asking MPs “what is the risk?”

In the group I was in they also talked about how changing your gender multiple times should be allowed and shouldn’t be seen as “bad intentions”.

James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening"
(continues)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3398737-We-re-Still-Here-Conference-8th-September-A-report-from-the-inside

I just listened to the Joan Smith interview. I decided not to waste my time listening to Belcher whine on.

I was amazed at how much Smith managed to pack in. She was very calm, very authoritative, very fact-based. I had to laugh when Garvey said something about Belcher feeling too "vulnerable" to debate the issue with her. Really? An adult with years of political experience vulnerable at having their ideas challenged by another adult? How utterly pathetic. I suppose they've had so much success with the "poor me" narrative up till now they think it will carry on working when tried on the Radio 4-listening public. Frankly, I think they're in for a shock.

I had to laugh when Garvey said something about Belcher feeling too "vulnerable" to debate the issue with her. Really? An adult with years of political experience vulnerable at having their ideas challenged by another adult? How utterly pathetic. I suppose they've had so much success with the "poor me" narrative up till now they think it will carry on working when tried on the Radio 4-listening public. Frankly, I think they're in for a shock.

November 2018 Woman's Hour ran a series of sex & gender discussions after the government consultation on proposed changes to the GRA.
Bex Stinson (former Stonewall Trans Equality lead) claimed the same vulnerability as Belcher about a studio discussion with Jane Garvey & Helen Lewis. Bex Stinson's interview was pre-recorded as a consequence.
It was this announcement which 'peaked' my Dad who was listening to Radio 4 at the time. I think his words were, "bloody ridiculous."

thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3428918-Womans-Hour-Tues-20-11-18-Why-is-the-current-debate-about-sex-and-gender-so-often-called-toxic-we-hear-from-Bex-Stinson-and-helenlewis

HB would be hopeless as an MP if they feel too vulnerable to debate with Joan smith. I mean have they seen the behaviour in the House of Commons?

I really dislike the pulling of the vulnerability card by ppl who seem as vulnerable as a Sherman tank!

Why can't Womens Hour find transwomen willing to have a live conversation with anyone gender critical?

This is getting ridiculous.