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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour - 16 June - scrapping the proposed GRA amendments

145 replies

nauticant · 15/06/2020 10:29

Just announced that this will be a topic for discussion tomorrow. It will be interesting whether, following a shift in people being more allowed to discuss this, and it being clear how this triggers violent misogyny, whether WH will realise that giving a fair hearing to the gender critical view is essential.

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 16/06/2020 15:57

I don't know if HB has a GRC or not, but I would not feel comfortable seeing someone of that build following young girls into a female only bathroom/changing room. No hatred towards HB just concern as to what is going on in front of my eyes.) The problem is someone (goodness knows who) told these men that after they transitioned they could use womens spaces..... that is the cause of all this madness now!

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 16:11

I don't know if HB has a GRC or not, but I would not feel comfortable seeing someone of that build following young girls into a female only bathroom/changing room. No hatred towards HB just concern as to what is going on in front of my eyes.)

Helen Belcher has been open about not having a GRC & has been campaigning hard to remove the spousal exit clause for many years.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 16:19

May 2020 Liz Barker (LibDem Lords) interview for #IDAHOBIT day by Matthew Hulbert

(special mention for H Belcher)

“There has been a vicious campaign against Trans women.”A special interview, marking IDAHoBiT, with Baroness Liz Barker'

(extract)
LB: Yes, I work closely with trans groups, intersex groups and non-binary people. When the government’s LGBT Action plan was published there was some optimism that long overdue legal reform would happen. Sadly for the last three years there has been a vicious campaign against trans women. It is orchestrated by extreme right wingers from the US, but it is perpetrated by people, many of them women, who are traditionally on the left. Despite a stark lack of evidence, the constant assertions that trans women pose a threat to other women are fanned by journalists. We are not talking about the usual suspects like the Mail and the Murdoch sheets, media such as the Guardian and the BBC have endlessly and relentlessly given credence to views which on any other subject would be subject to journalistic scrutiny and dismissed. Worst of all, lesbians and gay men, many of whom know what it is like to be subject to discrimination and misrepresentation, are now subjecting trans women to that same unfair treatment. That is utterly disgraceful.

What is life like as an Out Parliamentarian? Are there still those who are negative about it?

LB: That is the case at the moment, and I hope it can remain so. I wasn’t able to come out for many years for personal reasons. To work every day under the threat of being outed took a toll on me, but also friends and colleagues who worried for me. When I could come out I did and I decided to use my position and influence to make life better for others, especially those who still face discrimination in their communities. There are now more LGB parliamentarians, sadly no trans MPs or peers yet, but I do hope that the brilliant campaigner Helen Belcher can break that barrier. I co-founded the APPG on Global LGBT Rights and, despite current restraints on the Lords imposed by government, I hope to continue that work. And I have worked a lot on building LGBT issues into discussions about equalities, especially with parliamentarians from abroad. I try to help activists from other countries too. I consider it my duty to help as many groups and activists from our communities to engage effectively with parliament and government. I hope that I can continue to do this work, because in this COVID world I think it is more necessary than ever, because since Brexit there has been a rise in intolerance of minorities and that is unhealthy, for everyone."

mathewhulbertonline. wordpress.com/2020/05/17/there-has-been-a-vicious-campaign-against-trans-women-a-special-interview-marking-idahobit-with-baroness-liz-barker/

November 2019 Make More Noise
'Trans Widows and the Spousal “Veto”: a modern fable of male entitlement'
(extract)
"A motion was passed at the 2019 Liberal Democrat Conference that vowed to remove the spousal “veto”. Baroness Barker followed this up with a Private Members Bill in the House of Lords, which proposed to replace the wife’s right to obtain an annulment/dissolution, with the right to be informed that a GRC is being issued. Yes, you read that correctly. A right to be informed.

So a woman could wake up one morning to find a letter on her doormat that essentially tells her that as far as the state is concerned, she’s a lesbian now. I suppose it’s a new opening for greetings card companies.

Fortunately at the time of writing, this bill has automatically fallen due to the dissolution of parliament. It could rear up again like the Terminator, after the General Election though. Would the Lib Dems think it acceptable in any other contract for one party to entirely change the terms, yet the other party still be bound by it? It seems unlikely." (continues)
makemorenoisemanc.wixsite.com/mysite/post/trans-widows-and-the-spousal-veto-a-modern-fable-of-male-entitlement

happydappy2 · 16/06/2020 16:25

Ro so if HB has no GRC, they are legally Male....and have no right to be in the womens facilities, why would they not just get a GRC? It makes no sense to me at all. Why do they feel they are above the law? Might they have applied and been turned down?

RoyalCorgi · 16/06/2020 16:27

I really dislike the pulling of the vulnerability card by ppl who seem as vulnerable as a Sherman tank!

It's deeply unconvincing, unless you're of the generation that sees "vulnerability" as a trump card in any argument.

I may have made this observation before, but when you look at past political movements for minority rights such as black civil rights, or women's rights, or gay rights, you simply don't see them playing this vulnerability card. Martin Luther King didn't say he was too frightened to debate with white racists. Germaine Greer didn't shy away from sharing a platform with Norman Mailer in front of an audience of millions. Those activists were pretty damn fearless which is why we admire them.

The idea that Helen Belcher is too scared to debate with someone as fearsome as, er, Joan Smith, is, frankly, pathetic.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/06/2020 16:45

I thought that Joan Smith did an excellent job. HB by contrast was trying to present herself as a victim without actually explaining why. I think Jane Garvey sounded exasperated with her. Joan sounded like the calm grownup.

jhuizinga · 16/06/2020 16:45

I've just listened on catch-up to the Belcher and Joan Smith interviews. Joan Smith was excellent, so clear and concise. Belcher, on the other hand, spouted nothing but me-me-me twaddle and misinformation. You have to laugh that someone who wants to be elected as an MP felt 'unable' to debate the issue live on radio. It was frustrating that Jane Garvey didn't challenge more of what was said. However, one thing that was made crystal clear to me, and hopefully to others, is that Belcher had no actual arguments to make.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/06/2020 16:47

It does seem to me that the ‘I won’t debate with someone who denies my right to exist’ tactic is going as they realise it simply won’t wash any more.

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 16:49

so if HB has no GRC, they are legally Male....and have no right to be in the womens facilities, why would they not just get a GRC? It makes no sense to me at all. Why do they feel they are above the law? Might they have applied and been turned down?

Anyone who does not have a GRC is of course for all purposes to be regarded as their sex.

Joanna Belcher (Helen Belcher's wife) speech at the LibDem conference prompted a resolution to remove the spousal exit clause & provides some background.

New Statesman article by Ailbhe Rea
14 SEPTEMBER 2019
'Liberal Democrats decide to remove the controversial trans ‘spousal veto’
A moving debate culiminated in the party conference backing a boost to trans rights.'
(extract)
"In a moving debate at the party’s conference this morning, Joanna Belcher, the wife of Helen Belcher, the Liberal Democrat’s prospective parliamentary candidate in Chippenham, told the conference about her own experience of the spousal veto during her wife’s transition.

“Sixteen years ago I was living with a depressed husband who had recently stood over a railway bridge and seriously contemplated jumping. We had two young children,” she told the room.

“We were both trying to work out the ramifications of the realisation that she needed to live her life openly as a woman. It became clear that in order for my spouse to change her legal gender, and for us to remain in our marriage, I would be asked to sign a consent form.

“I didn’t want to sign anything that said this was what I was choosing. I was supporting my other half, while trying to hold myself and our family together, but it wasn’t my choice.

“It wasn’t my choice and I knew this had to happen, that a second female parent was way better for our kids than a dead male parent. But shouldn’t have been my decision to make. This was a burden I didn’t want. Only my other half knew who she truly was.”

Belcher added that the law as it stands allows spouses to “use this veto as a weapon to hurt their exes and prevent them from moving on in their lives”. (continues)
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/09/liberal-democrats-decide-remove-controversial-trans-spousal-veto

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 16/06/2020 16:57

Whatever HB May say the spousal veto doesn’t exist. Ruth Hunt asked for it to be abolished in her first speech in the Lords only for one of the Law Lords to very politely put her right.
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-minister-who-politely-refused-to-play-the-trans-language-game/amp

Kit19 · 16/06/2020 16:57

Every time I read what Joanna Belcher says my heart goes out to her. The man she married threatened to kill himself if she didn’t go along with what he wanted.

On the relationships board posters are always told that suicide threats are abusive tactics designed to coerce you & you’re not responsible for their behaviour

She didn’t exactly get a free choice did she

MsTSwift · 16/06/2020 17:02

The dramatic drama of the first guest 🙄 dear me. Odd to hear an older educated adult talk like that sounded like one of my teens.

Love Joan smith have read her stuff for years

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 17:08

On the relationships board posters are always told that suicide threats are abusive tactics designed to coerce you & you’re not responsible for their behaviour

resource thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3452784-Coercive-Control-a-need-for-better-awareness

Deltoids1 · 16/06/2020 17:11

HB won’t have an on air discussion with a feminist but want to become an MP? How does that stack up? Being able to articulate ones argument under questioning is surely a prerequisite for an MP?

RoyalCorgi · 16/06/2020 17:20

Being able to articulate ones argument under questioning is surely a prerequisite for an MP?

Yup. And if Belcher has ever seen the House of Commons in action they'll know that it's like a bear pit. Lots of shouting and abuse towards MPs they disagree with. Lots of sexist insults towards women.

And I'm guessing Belcher has seen the H of C and still wants to be an MP. So either mature feminists like Joan Smith are more terrifying than anything in the House of Commons, or Belcher is simply lying because they imagine (falsely, as it turns out) that people will be more sympathetic if they pretend to be too vulnerable to debate.

OldCrone · 16/06/2020 17:50

@Kit19

Every time I read what Joanna Belcher says my heart goes out to her. The man she married threatened to kill himself if she didn’t go along with what he wanted.

On the relationships board posters are always told that suicide threats are abusive tactics designed to coerce you & you’re not responsible for their behaviour

She didn’t exactly get a free choice did she

Scroll down this page to the video of Joanna and Helen Belcher (not the video at the top of the page)

helenbelcher.uk/en/

Joanna talks about how she was 'walking on eggshells' before Helen's transition, and how Helen had a 'very short fuse'.

OldCrone · 16/06/2020 17:57

On the relationships board posters are always told that suicide threats are abusive tactics designed to coerce you & you’re not responsible for their behaviour

Scottish Trans, in their survey of 60 transgender people, listed attempts and threats of suicide by the partners of transgender people as a form of emotional abuse.

Emotional Abuse: Threatening Behaviour by Partner or Ex-Partner
Threatened or attempted to kill themselves as a way of making you do something or stopping you doing something

www.scottishtrans.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/trans_domestic_abuse.pdf

So why are threats of suicide coming from trans people not seen as equally manipulative and abusive?

Woman's Hour - 16 June - scrapping the proposed GRA amendments
FantaOra · 16/06/2020 18:03

Belcher's opening Salvo was the story of sitting on the toilet that morning crying for five minutes. That was a horrible mental picture frankly. Jane Garvey followed by saying too much detail far too soon. Completely agree Jane, opening up Women's Hour with a graphic tale from Belcher of their morning sitting on the toilet was not really the analysis of the GRA anyone wanted or expected. Where's the coy "bathroom" decorum gone? It will take me a while to get past that visual invasion.

JellyFishSquish · 16/06/2020 18:27

I have sent WH an unhappy-gram. Had to write it twice because I was interrupted by the GC and came back to a blank screen. Of course I did not save it. Numpty.

PigeonToe · 16/06/2020 18:35

There's a review of today's WH in the Telegraph:

www.telegraph.co.uk/radio/what-to-listen-to/has-womans-hour-flinched-trans-issues/

AbsintheFriends · 16/06/2020 18:39

Do you have a share token pigeon? (Do the telegraph do them?)

midclegs · 16/06/2020 18:39

Just came on to post that link.

"“How do we behave responsibly here? We don’t want trans women to feel wretched,” said Garvey, which seemed to be the heart of the matter. Nobody wants to hurt anyone’s feelings, even when facts get in the way. Oh to be a fly on the wall in the BBC editorial meetings on this tricky subject, where the hand-wringing could probably produce enough friction to power a small town."

Grin Grin

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 18:39

Good article.

Comments not open on it sadly.

TorkTorkBam · 16/06/2020 18:51

Maybe WH could do a piece on "Is it ever acceptable for a woman to reject a man's demands? What if the man gets really upset about her saying no?"

Maybe they can practice by saying no to some of the people in the BBC who won't let them do a proper interview.

Maybe they can practice by replacing pundits, lobbyists and politicians who refuse to debate.

There are plenty of others who could have taken Belcher's place when Belcher wasn't up for it. Why did the BBC and WH stand for it?

R0wantrees · 16/06/2020 19:07

Telegraph article, 'Woman's Hour is one of the bravest, most humane programmes on radio, so why has it flinched from trans issues?

You’d think that if any radio programme were happy to talk about women it would be Woman’s Hour on Radio 4."

Women's Hour failed to cover discussions during the Westminster consultation on self identifying sex.
It ran a special week about gender & sex but only after the consultation had closed.
There was a single item about the Scottish Government's second consultation during its final days.
I've been expecting Jenni Murray to break cover & talk about what's been going on with the editorial team for a long time.

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