Just had a blazing row with dd

[steppemum]

So, dd is gender non binary, has changed her name and want sot use them/they pronouns.
This is the end of a long process of about 4 years, she is 15.

I am supportive up to a point (she can call herself what she wants)
But I have gently pushed back against the theory behind it, as I am GC.

We have just had a blazing row. She said that 70% of the victims of DV were men.
From a 'very big and respected men's rights group' that have 'proved' that these are correct and that men's rights don't get any media attention, like the poor bloke who died in Australia at the hand of his wife and she didn't go to jail.

I'm afraid I flipped my lid. Lost my temper and gave a a full force lecture about feminism and the oppression of women. Gave a her a load of statistics about number of women killed every week by their partners, about women begging for help with stalkers who then kill them, about the 2 families in the UK killed since lock down began by the MEN, about how as a women she will face, discrimination, glass ceiling, physical danger, etc etc, because whether she likes it or not she is a WOMAN, and women have faced that since the beginning of time, and so no, my heart doesn't bleed for the poor menz. She said in divorce women always get the kids, so I mentioned all the single mums whose feckless partners bugger off and leave them with no money and no support holding the baby.
She gave me a load more fake statistics from her men's rights group. which she can't name.

I am so so fucking angry. I hate the fucking internet.

So, apart from my crap parenting, does anyone know the men's rights group she may be refering to, and can anyone counter these statistics with facts? Not just police report facts, (they are apparently all biased) but does anyone know how I can dig behind her facts to see where they come from?

If she can't provide her source and back up the statitics she quotes, she has no argument.

she really believes it though.

I have no doubt she is in her room now finding the website to prove it all.

I wonder if it's worth a different tack - a more general discussion about how we know anything (!). How would she go about establishing if X or Y was true (something completely unrelated)? Would you devise a test, would you ask someone, how would you decide who to ask? Is there a way that personal bias might creep in to the test design/decision of who to ask (again, maybe use an unrelated example)?

I used to find interesting reading in lists of cognitive biases (things like 'hearing a detailed story by one person is more convincing than e.g. 100 people giving a brief story - one detailed amazon review vs 100 star-ratings, or something similar!)

It might awaken a bit of reflection? Or maybe not at all if she's not a nerd like me :)

Bear in mind she'll have been utterly convinced in her beliefs - so it will take some undoing - particularly if it's "Here's the REAL STORY YOU'RE NOT BEING TOLD' - very attractive to teens!

My guess? Twitter, its a cess pit of MRAs.

I do feel sorry for girls like her, she's lucky to have a sensible mum because she's going to have a rude awakening when reality bites.

Teenagers are a nightmare and this shit is making it a million times worse.

Do you think she would read a book? Helen Lewis's 'Difficult Women ' gives a very easy to read, and shocking history of the women who had to fight for the most basic rights. Would she listen on Audible? If not, why don't you read or listen to it and then tell her. I think we all need reminding of the fights women have had to put up and this book does it really well.

I'm sure you will get lots of responses here. Remember that teenagers do grow out if it. One of my sons was reading anti women, right wing white for years. I fought him on every occasion and he now says he supports 'my kind of feminism'. To be fair, Lib feminism is so full of holes no wonder it's used against women.

Keep talking to her, she is curious and opinionated. You are not a crap parent either. Keep talking, she is listening, even if she is coming out with crap at the moment

Here's the REAL STORY YOU'RE NOT BEING TOLD' - very attractive to teens!

oh absolutely.

I'm really not proud that I told her when she hits discrimination etc it will be because she is a woman. That wasn't a great moment. But actually, she does need to hear it.

She won't discuss stuff. I challenged something the other week. In a very simple way I said I don't hink that is the whole story and she went off in a stomping temper. She is naturally very non confrontational and won't discuss most things, and was very upset with me today. But I think it has been a long time coming.

This is why children should not be offered gender transition of any kind . They are so vulnerable to group think tactics especially via non stop social media. My god when I look back on how I was when I was 15 ..just a mess of hormones , so uncertain about everything . Certainly in no place to make big life decisions. I’m definitely not the same person I was then bit I’m sure as hell still a woman!

well I was just thinking of ordering that helen Lewis book, when I foudn this amongst the reviews:

Erin founded the first British women’s refuge in Chiswick in 1971 but has sadly now been all but airbrushed out of the refuge movement’s history because of her support for the men’s rights movement which promotes the view that most domestic violence is reciprocal and therefore provoked. It’s a complicated story and one in which no one comes out particularly well.

so maybe that is where this belief in 70% victims are men comes from. I'll need to read it first myself I think.

As you said, she's 15. You're not a crap parent if a 15 year old doesn't share an exact copy of your beliefs, factual or not. Ultimately, I would recommend evaluating how harmful her holding her current beliefs are in the short term and weighing that against how having subservience beaten (metaphorically, I imagine and hope) into her will impact her development. She's clearly a strong willed (non binary) young woman which, holistically, is quite positive in my mind.

On a personal note, I understand that it's emotionally challenging but you shouldn't be looking to 'win' an argument with your DD for the sake of 'winning', no matter how factually accurate your beliefs are. Her having those beliefs may not make you a crap parent but I feel strongly that forcing her to share yours (for the purpose of simply 'winning') does.

She’s been tumblr washed

I’m not surprised you flipped your lid OP. It is completely enraging

She has the % flipped - not even mankind claims its 70%

fullfact.org/crime/are-third-domestic-abuse-victims-men/

how having subservience beaten (metaphorically, I imagine and hope) into her will impact her development

you shouldn't be looking to 'win' an argument with your DD for the sake of 'winning', no matter how factually accurate your beliefs are. Her having those beliefs may not make you a crap parent but I feel strongly that forcing her to share yours (for the purpose of simply 'winning') does.

sorry, I think you must be on the wrong thread, as I can't work out how you got any of that from my OP.

Yes I want to challenge the crap she has read on the internet, as I would if it was about any issue.
Subservience (what does that even mean in this context) and winning don't come into it.
having some actual factual information for her does.

Have you thought about cancelling her phone contract? And then limiting her access to wifI? Tell her she can get it all back when she stops acting like an arse.

I’d have flipped my lid at such horse crap.

“... 43% of high school boys and young college men reported they had an unwanted sexual experience and of those, 95% said a female acquaintance was the aggressor, according to a study published online in the APA journal Psychology of Men & Masculinity®

So i found this retweeted on the fathers for justice twitter.
twitter.com/PhilMitchell83/status/1248585723571249152

It's not hard to find MRA nonsense on any platform but the important thing is how and why is she getting this information?
I know most on this board have been saying for years that it's a MRA movement but are they now influencing young teenagers?
A case of the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
If a young person believes anyone who questions gender is a t**f wouldn't it be easy for them to believe anything else negative said about women regardless of the source?

This from refuge.org.uk Crown Prosecution Service data shows that 93% of defendants in domestic abuse court cases are male, and 84% of victims are female. So if 84% are female 16% are male. I'm trying to find the info but I heard on a radio discussion ages ago that a significant % of male victims are in same sex relationships.

You're not a crap parent, this awful stuff is all over the internet and it is just brainwashing. The only way I can really think to counter it, would be to get your dd to read and watch videos etc from other sources. I don't know how you can make her do that though, and I suspect the more forceful you are, the less she will listen. It must be hard, I'm sorry.

I often think of my brother who is very slim, similarly built to me and about my height. He's a
smoker, a drug addict, he drinks way too much so he's completely unfit. He can (and has) done a lot of damage to me with his fists despite the fact we are about the same size and I'm in much better shape than him. The average man is just phsyically stronger (in arm strength at least), than the average woman. I find that fact very hard to ignore when talking about domestic violence.

SociallyDistant - dd would say that the men as victims don't get to trial because they are ignored/not taken seriously

Not taken seriously by an overwhelmingly male judicial system? Why does she think that might be? Genuinely ask her why she thinks men don’t take it seriously - it’s an opportunity to maybe get her to think about gender stereotypes & patriarchy

sorry, I think you must be on the wrong thread, as I can't work out how you got any of that from my OP.

You had a 'blazing row' and became further enraged when your DD quoted some incorrect statistics. Now, you're looking for facts to present her with. I could understand the urgency if she's actually harming herself by holding incorrect beliefs but, otherwise, how does this help her development?

Subservience (what does that even mean in this context) and winning don't come into it. having some actual factual information for her does.

Subservience in the sense that you're aggressively lecturing at a 15 year old for being wrong. I really do understand why it makes you angry but it doesn't seem like positive parenting to continue with the topic unless her not being corrected will cause her significant long term harm.

Bluebooby
her older brother is 6'3" and works out so he is massively strong and muscley. I am an overweight 5'8" but he could easily pick me up and throw me. (not that he ever would)

When I think of DV I just think always of that physical difference. I wouldn't win a fight with dh, and I could easily be battered to death by ds. Ds doesn't think twice about walking down a dark alley late at night, most people would avoid him, due to his size.
There is just no comparison, and I was aware of the shear physical strength of most men at her age (my dad was built like ds) but she doesn't seem to see it somehow.

Gronky - I bow to your perfect parenting

There are some solid statistics here. One in four women will suffer domestic abuse compared to one in six men. Over one hundred women a year are murdered due to domestic abuse, compared to around thirty men. The really chilling factor, is that four hundred people every year go on to commit suicide (They do not mention the men/women split). On average there will have been thirty five assaults before the victim calls the police.

www.lwa.org.uk/understanding-abuse/statistics.htm

The ONS statistics are here.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/domesticabuseinenglandandwalesoverview/november2019

but she is a child.
you cannot expect to argue with her as if you were in a college debating society.
whatever she says, just try to calm down and keep an even temper.
could you try saying something like, well i think that is incorrect, you may have been misled by something you read.
i know it is an important, loaded subject. but she is your child, not flatmate, not political opponent. try to shew you accept her with love and gentleness and patience. while making clear that does nor depend on having the same opinions, beliefs. that may change. is bound to. your relationship is constant.

She’s 15, I’m sure most of us believed ridiculous stuff when we were that age. I know I did, it’s part of being a teenager, thinking you’re right and everyone else is wrong no matter what the evidence says. Just let her be a kid, of course you should say you disagree with her, but aggressively debating with her as if she’s an adult is unfair and not taking her age and immaturity into account.

Gronky - I bow to your perfect parenting

I'd rather you considered whether your further actions benefit you or your DD more. I'm not judging you for how you acted, I would have likely reacted similarly, I'm just asking that you consider what you seek to gain by correcting her and how likely you are to get what you want by your chosen method.

alexdgr8 and Elsiebear90 put it much more straightforwardly than I ever could have.