Just had a blazing row with dd

[steppemum]

So, dd is gender non binary, has changed her name and want sot use them/they pronouns.
This is the end of a long process of about 4 years, she is 15.

I am supportive up to a point (she can call herself what she wants)
But I have gently pushed back against the theory behind it, as I am GC.

We have just had a blazing row. She said that 70% of the victims of DV were men.
From a 'very big and respected men's rights group' that have 'proved' that these are correct and that men's rights don't get any media attention, like the poor bloke who died in Australia at the hand of his wife and she didn't go to jail.

I'm afraid I flipped my lid. Lost my temper and gave a a full force lecture about feminism and the oppression of women. Gave a her a load of statistics about number of women killed every week by their partners, about women begging for help with stalkers who then kill them, about the 2 families in the UK killed since lock down began by the MEN, about how as a women she will face, discrimination, glass ceiling, physical danger, etc etc, because whether she likes it or not she is a WOMAN, and women have faced that since the beginning of time, and so no, my heart doesn't bleed for the poor menz. She said in divorce women always get the kids, so I mentioned all the single mums whose feckless partners bugger off and leave them with no money and no support holding the baby.
She gave me a load more fake statistics from her men's rights group. which she can't name.

I am so so fucking angry. I hate the fucking internet.

So, apart from my crap parenting, does anyone know the men's rights group she may be refering to, and can anyone counter these statistics with facts? Not just police report facts, (they are apparently all biased) but does anyone know how I can dig behind her facts to see where they come from?

Gronky

Do you not think it could cause long term harm if a 15 year old non binary girl is being influenced on the internet by MRA's or by people who have an agenda against women and mothers they call T**rfs?
It's all well and good to say let her be a child, we all said and did silly things as teenage, but a lot of us weren't influenced by random people on the internet.

This has been posted on twitter by dr Jessica Taylor - seems pretty conclusive!

DS did this to me. I asked him for a list of men who had been killed by their partners in the UK in 2018.

I showed him this website:
kareningalasmith.com/counting-dead-women/
I asked why these 'mens groups' hadn't produced a similar site and why I couldn't find any evidence of what he was saying.
I showed him 173 women had been murdered by partners in 2018 and asked, if they represent 30% of the problem, where I could find evidence of the 403 dead men.
He apologised and went on top read "The War on Women" which is utterly brilliant.

Try and engage with her but it is ok to be angry - what she is saying is utter nonsense and you want the best for her.

Can I just say that those with all the superscilious perfect parenting comments can fuck off.

I said quite clearly that we are 4 years into this, and that I am very supportive but have gently pushed back.

So, yes, been there done that with gentle support, gently saying I'm not sure about that, you may have been misled.
Encouraging her to be herself, that it is OK to be different. Gently supporting her and her friendships, supporting the gang of non binary and trans kids that make up her friendship group, because you know, they are kids and they need love and suport from those round them.

years of finding clothes she is comfortable with. Literally hours and hours going form shop to shop to find clothes she feels comfortable in, because she wants to dress as a boy, but has a very female shape. Bloody hours trawling the internet to find school trousers that fit the (strict) rules but fit her so she doesn't have to wear a skirt.

I know she is a child, that she isn't a debating society.
She is my child and I have been dealing with this fucking calmly for 4 fucking years
But today I lost it OK? Not because I beat my child into subservient agreement with my opinion and views. Bloody hell if I wanted her to agree with me we would have been in deep shit years ago.

I want some facts. Not because I want to force her to listen to and understand my facts v. her facts.
Not because I want to agressively debate with her.
Not because I want to insist on my version of the truth, or have another row, once is quite enough.

I just want to know where she is getting it from and how to find out the bad science behind it, so I am prepared for a conversation. When this does come up again, I want to have some knowledge and understanding of where she is coming from.

I came on here to vent. I have admitted I am a crap parent by having a go at her. I know that, I said that up front. I said I lost ot and shouldn't have. I don't need to be beaten with a stick any more thank you. I thought mn would be a safe place to let off steam
Wish I hadn't bothered.

Mn can be so helpful and so fucking judgemental.

and the irony? I don't swear. Ever. In person and on-line, but today has justbeen too fucking much

Do you not think it could cause long term harm if a 15 year old non binary girl is being influenced on the internet by MRA's or by people who have an agenda against women and mothers they call Trfs?

It's very much possible they could be harmful, depending on the specific beliefs they hold, that's why I believe it's worth steppemum evaluating them on those terms as well as examining how these beliefs guide her DDs thought process and actions (it's also possible that they're simply harmless lunacy). Otherwise, I'd have advised that she simply ignore them.

I have admitted I am a crap parent by having a go at her. I know that, I said that up front. I said I lost ot and shouldn't have. I don't need to be beaten with a stick any more thank you.

FWIW, I don't believe you're crap for having a go at her or having lost it in the first place, I believe you're a human being.

@steppemum I can only imagine how sad & frustrating these years have been

Seriously if you want to know where she’s getting this - my advice would be to get on tumblr. It is full of stuff like your daughter is parroting

Of course you're angry and concerned OP! It's not that your daughter disagrees with you, it's that she is part of a cohort of young people groomed into holding misogynist views and believing false stats.

I'm trying to think of comparisons... If you were atheist and she became a Christian you might disagree about a lot of things. If you supported Labour and your daughter joined the young Conservatives, ditto. But neither of these situations should cause more than some very heated dinner time discussions!

This is completely different. I think misogyny is so deeply ingrained in our culture that we don't always see it is because it seems normal. If your daughter expressed racist views that she got from the Internet what would you do? You wouldn't reject her or cease caring for her but you'd have a right to draw a line and not support her interest in your home, by limiting Internet access for example. Admittedly easier said than done during lock down.

Also OP.
My kids are not yet teens. I dread this situation.

I'm sorry you haven't remarked on popehilarious's suggestion because I think that that is the way to go. Maybe you could even suggest that you might be wrong and both of you go and look for supporting information.

I understand how you lost your cool, and I would have too, but the most important thing at the moment is not what she believes now but how easily persuadable she is. You want to develop her critical thinking rather than win this battle.

For example, it is unquestionably true that we don't have accurate statistics for all dv and men are much less likely to come forward. But that does not entitle anyone to make up figures to suit their cause. Likewise dv is much more fatal for women than it is for men.

I don’t think you are a crap parent for having a go at her. I think it does teenagers the works of good to understand that their mum is a human being and can only be pushed so far. (And actually you can’t spout any old shite to your mum just because you read it on the internet)

I think the posters having a go are a long way off from the teenage years.

I don’t think you’re a crap parent, I just don’t think it’s best to engage in such serious emotionally charged debate with an immature teenager to try and prove she’s wrong and you’re right. My father used to do this with me and I lacked the emotional maturity to handle it, it was horrible and I would never ever admit he was right (even though I know now sometimes he was) because I was a stubborn teenager and it became just about us both trying to “win” rather than understand and discuss a difference of opinion.

She’s a stubborn immature teenager who thinks she’s right and everyone else is wrong, therefore, you’re never going to get the result you want from debating with her over this. My advice would be to politely disagree and try not to take it too seriously, as it’s highly likely in a few years when she’s more mature and has some real life experience she’ll realise she was an idiot for believing this nonsense.

Vent away, OP!

I just don’t think it’s best to engage in such serious emotionally charged debate with an immature teenager to try and prove she’s wrong and you’re right. My father used to do this with me and I lacked the emotional maturity to handle it

I have explicitly said I am not trying to prove I am wrong and she is right. That our normal way of communicating is not debate, that today was a one off, that I am trying to find out where she is getting it from, not to hit her over the head with it

I am not your father.

I have explicitly said I am not trying to prove I am wrong and she is right. That our normal way of communicating is not debate, that today was a one off, that I am trying to find out where she is getting it from, not to hit her over the head with it

I am not your father.

Yet you’re on a thread asking for help from people so you can “challenge the crap” she is coming out with, so seems to me like you want ammunition for another debate.

Oh God that sounds so tough OP. I am dreading this because I too am GC and I have a daughter a little younger than yours who is questioning her gender.

With her I keep emphasising that I know nothing about it but I am willing to learn with her. I don’t get into any rows about it because I don’t think it would help her or me. I don’t try to control any narrative around gender identity at all with her. The way I see it is, no matter what I feel about gender ideology, ultimately she is her own person, she is the most knowledgeable person out there about herself even now and at this stage of her life she is developing her sense of self and her identity and I want to positively influence that as far as possible. To be honest as well I worry if I step too far I will affect her self esteem and drive her further into questioning her self and her identity.

I do try to focus on her developing her critical thinking skills around good and bad information sources and how to differentiate between them. I do tell her about my beliefs around sex inequality and scientific sex definitions so those conversations do happen but not in a heated manner.

I don’t know about your situation, as always everyone and every dynamic is different but from what you have written it reads like she is provoking you.

For whatever reason (being a teenager most likely) she sounds like she is deliberately picking on your own deeply held beliefs to get a reaction from you. I wonder if you not reacting would give her the most scope to explore these issues for herself and with you in calmer moments. I know it is scary this mad path they are walking down, I find it really, really scary thinking about surgerys or hormones or binders but I think that forcing particularly teenagers into a corner seldom brings them around from black and white thinking.

That is how teens grow by arguing their position basedvon their 'belief window',. Of course, they are not always good at critical thinking.

I would be very disturbed by anyone coming out with that crap, especially a 15 year old girl.

It must be gutting Op and I would be angry and frustrated too.

op

Not sure how many times you have to say you are not trying to win an argument with your teen.
Your post didn't come across like that at all.

These links might also be useful OP - Karen Ingala Smith looks male DV victims in her series on "what about the men"

kareningalasmith.com/what-about-the-men-special-mens-section/

Particularly kareningalasmith.com/2013/04/29/this-thing-about-male-victims/

(And FWIW we research "rough sex" defences like that used by the murderer of Grace Millane - in every single UK case of homicide or violent assault that's claimed to be consensual, the accused is male. Suspect much of our site might not be suitable for young eyes but: wecantconsenttothis.uk/blog/2019/7/3/who-uses-this-defence

V hard. I'm sure I believed some horror "facts" when younger, even pre-internet.

ONS:
'Domestic abuse in England and Wales overview: November 2019
Figures on domestic abuse from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, police recorded crime and a number of different organisations'

"In the year ending March 2019, an estimated 2.4 million adults aged 16 to 74 years experienced domestic abuse in the last year (1.6 million women and 786,000 men).

The police recorded 746,219 domestic abuse-related crimes in the year ending March 2019, an increase of 24% from the previous year.

This increase may reflect improved recording by the police and increased reporting by victims."

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/bulletins/domesticabuseinenglandandwalesoverview/november2019

Women's Aid
"Key statistics
There are no reliable prevalence data on domestic abuse but the Crime Survey of England and Wales (CSEW) offers the best data available. According to these data, an estimated 7.9% (1.3 million) of women experienced some form of domestic abuse in the year ending March 2018, and an estimated 28.9% (4.8 million) of women aged 16 to 59 years have experienced some form of domestic abuse since the age of 16 years. However, it is important to note that these data do not take into account important context and impact information, such as whether the violence caused fear, who the repeat victims were and who experienced violence in a context of power and control. When these factors are taken into account the gendered nature of domestic abuse becomes much more apparent. See ‘Domestic abuse is a gendered crime’.
On average the police in England and Wales receive over 100 calls relating to domestic abuse every hour. (HMIC, 2015)
According to CSEW data for the year ending March 2018, only 18% of women who had experienced partner abuse in the last 12 months reported the abuse to the police."
www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/how-common-is-domestic-abuse/

Women's Aid

"There are important differences between male violence against women and female violence against men, namely the amount, severity and impact. Women experience higher rates of repeated victimisation and are much more likely to be seriously hurt (Walby & Towers, 2017; Walby & Allen, 2004) or killed than male victims of domestic abuse (ONS, 2017). Further to that, women are more likely to experience higher levels of fear and are more likely to be subjected to coercive and controlling behaviours (Dobash & Dobash, 2004; Hester, 2013; Myhill, 2015; Myhill, 2017).

The United Nations defines gender based violence in the following way:

“The definition of discrimination includes gender based violence, that is, violence that is directed against a woman because she is a woman or that affects women disproportionately. It includes acts that inflict physical, mental or sexual harm or suffering, threats of such acts, coercion and other deprivations of liberty.” (CEDAW 1992: para. 6).

Some key statistics:
From April 2014 to March 2017, 73% of victims of domestic homicides (homicides by an ex/partner or family member) were women. This contrasts with victims of non-domestic homicides, where the majority of victims were male (88%) and 12% of victims were female (ONS, 2018).
From April 2014 to March 2017 four in five female victims of domestic homicide were killed by a partner or ex-partner (239, 82%); of which the vast majority of suspects were male (238). 45 male victims were killed by a partner or ex-partner in the same time period; 7 of the suspects in these cases were male, and 38 were female (ONS, 2018).
One study of 96 cases of domestic abuse recorded by the police found that men are significantly more likely to be repeat perpetrators and significantly more likely than women to use physical violence, threats, and harassment. In a six year tracking period the majority of recorded male perpetrators (83%) had at least two incidents of recorded abuse, with many having a lot more than two and one man having 52 repeat incidents. Whereas in cases where women were recorded as the perpetrator the majority (62%) had only one incident of abuse recorded and the highest number of repeat incidents for any female perpetrator was eight. The study also found that men’s violence tended to create a context of fear and control; which was not the case when women were perpetrators. (Hester, 2013)
Over 80% (83%) of high frequency victims (more than 10 crimes) are women. (From a study of data from the Crime Survey for England and Wales, a nationally representative household survey.) (Walby & Towers, 2018)
In the year ending March 2018 the large majority of defendants in domestic abuse-related prosecutions were men (92%), and the majority (66%) of victims were recorded as female (13% of victims were male and in 21% of prosecutions the sex of the victim was not recorded) (ONS, 2018)."

www.womensaid.org.uk/information-support/what-is-domestic-abuse/domestic-abuse-is-a-gendered-crime/

dd would say that the men as victims don't get to trial because they are ignored/not taken seriously

My understanding is that DV against men and women are grossly under reported - I think there are estimates out there - and plenty of horrendous examples of the police not taking complaints by women seriously and then stating the women are the problem - particularly stalking by ex partners.

I don’t know anyone who hasn’t ranted at their teenage child. My parents certainly did!

This from wikipedia:

In relationships without reciprocal violence, women committed 70% of all violence.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men