Just had a blazing row with dd

[steppemum]

So, dd is gender non binary, has changed her name and want sot use them/they pronouns.
This is the end of a long process of about 4 years, she is 15.

I am supportive up to a point (she can call herself what she wants)
But I have gently pushed back against the theory behind it, as I am GC.

We have just had a blazing row. She said that 70% of the victims of DV were men.
From a 'very big and respected men's rights group' that have 'proved' that these are correct and that men's rights don't get any media attention, like the poor bloke who died in Australia at the hand of his wife and she didn't go to jail.

I'm afraid I flipped my lid. Lost my temper and gave a a full force lecture about feminism and the oppression of women. Gave a her a load of statistics about number of women killed every week by their partners, about women begging for help with stalkers who then kill them, about the 2 families in the UK killed since lock down began by the MEN, about how as a women she will face, discrimination, glass ceiling, physical danger, etc etc, because whether she likes it or not she is a WOMAN, and women have faced that since the beginning of time, and so no, my heart doesn't bleed for the poor menz. She said in divorce women always get the kids, so I mentioned all the single mums whose feckless partners bugger off and leave them with no money and no support holding the baby.
She gave me a load more fake statistics from her men's rights group. which she can't name.

I am so so fucking angry. I hate the fucking internet.

So, apart from my crap parenting, does anyone know the men's rights group she may be refering to, and can anyone counter these statistics with facts? Not just police report facts, (they are apparently all biased) but does anyone know how I can dig behind her facts to see where they come from?

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo Was actually referring to the Flora campaign which withdrew their advertising from mumsnet because of anti trans messages...

Is that the best you can manage?

I do find it amusing that mumaof0 is propagating anti-trans rhetoric (sex cannot be changed! Sex can be determined from your dna! Gender is a construct!) while imagining herself to be on the right side of history so to speak. Sprinkling a few terfs and cis about in her conversation won't save her when she engages with (proper) TRAs.

@Mumaof0 I thought you were going?
And by the way, no. Assigned is not a synonym for observed or recorded.

Shock that I am the odd one out on bloody middle class mumsnet. Over n out #SpreadLove and acceptance

@Lifeinthelastlane If you had a conversation with a trans person (could you IMAGINE) they would tell you the same thing. Except you wouldn't bother to engage because you KNOW you're right don't you

You are thinking of gender and sex as the same thing by saying that all adult women are women whatever length of hair etc. Yes they are biologically women but also their gender (women) matches their sex (women).

No I'm not.

Woman is a description of an adult human female (sex)

There are three parts:

1. Adult
2. Human
3. Female

Woman is not 'a gender'

Maybe you mean femininity?

But you are wrong. Everything in my last post I have seen said on twitter. You speaking to a trans person doesn't mean that that person spoke for all transgender people! Stop stereotyping them.

Lifeinthelastlane, they'd eat her alive for those statements, still the answer to this question What about trans people is so harmful to young girls? would become very apparent, very quickly.

They're not all the same.

If you had a conversation with a trans person (could you IMAGINE) they would tell you the same thing. Except you wouldn't bother to engage because you KNOW you're right don't you

Why asume people here don't speak to people who identify as trans or have identified as trans & subsequently detransitioned?

Are you here to engage or to berate, shout & then flounce?

Mumaof0 the trans people you know and interact with all accept their sex has not changed and they therefore do not expect to, nor ever access services that are designated on the basis of sex? They do not expect nor agree to language being altered which flies in the face of the sex binary?

@Oncewasblueandyellowtwo I've read the whole thread- I am aware that is not the subject of this discussion and I'm sure the experience of having an NB child is extraordinarily difficult for OP, but imo perhaps accepting their pronouns and using them would be the first step in being able to talk about the issues in this discussion without it becoming an argument. If OP's child feels respected then maybe they will be able respect OP's opinions more and discuss them in a calmer way.

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

Yep assigned is only another way of saying recorded. So when it is recorded your sex is female your gender is therefore also female. And you're absolutely correct that we can't change sex which is recorded in our DNA. However gender and sex are different and some people choose to change their gender (while they can't chance their sex which is in their DNA). Some choose to alter their outward appearance (gender) to appear as a different sex even though they can't change their XY or XX chromosomes obviously. Don't know why people take it so personally like it's an attack on their own womanhood.

Assigned really isn't another way of saying recorded. They're two completely different words with different meanings. If you assign something to someone, you're allocating or giving something to them, recording is taking note of what is observed to be there.

And gender just isn't this tangible thing that people have. It would be far easier if we used the term sex role stereotypes perhaps. I.e. dressing your dd in pink is a sex role stereotype in this culture. So is the idea that she should take part in ballet instead of football.

Shock that I am the odd one out on bloody middle class mumsnet

I'm not middle class, and personally find the idea that a person could identify their way into or out of oppression to be a very privileged concept.

Not read the whole post but I had a son who went through a period of watching "feminism is cancer" sort of videos.

What sorted him out was life experience. He met girls his age who were victims of violence from their boyfriends and men who weren't ashamed of abusing the girls. He heard men joking about the use of roofies and witnessed how his Dad and I ended up in stereotypical positions after divorce. People used to tell him that he was lucky to have such a great dad. He saw his Dad one night a fortnight.

I'm not middle class, and personally find the idea that a person could identify their way into or out of oppression to be a very privileged concept

The capacity for critical thought has little correlation with class. As has been aptly demonstrated by the gender debate.

What we have seen plenty of is someone espousing beliefs that have no personal cost for them which cost others in more vulnerable situations dearly.

Pronouns cannot function as correction fluid for those who are dissatisfied with reality.

Well said.

Personally what I find transphobic is people like Mumaof0 equating the opposition of men's rights activists' fake statistics with transphobia (I read their initial post accusing the OP of this before it was deleted for using slurs).

How's it gone today, OP?

steppemum

Has anyone heard of Tash Sultana she's an amazing musician who is female.
Tash Sultana (until recently) had they/them pronouns in her twitter bio and called herself non binary.Google Tash Sultana, non binary and you will get lots of hits.
Look at her twitter now!!NO PRONOUNS!!!!
What's happening FWR!!!!??

Tash now has new song called "pretty lady"
Some of the lyrics:

*Pretty lady
Where you going so fast
Try to make a moment last
Oh Come and take my hand why don’t you

I know that don’t try to tell me
Like I’m passing through a lesson learnt in time
But I know we’ve been over this
Why can’t I break through the other side
See I see how you see me
Is it the same why I really see myself
But I’m more than meets the surface
Sometimes I don’t feel worth this*

They are always a bit thick, aren't they?

It terrifies me that this anti woman movement is targeting children.

It terrifies me that this anti woman movement is targeting children.

Particularly when it targets girls & young women.
Especially when it does so by creating a wedge between children & mothers.